![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by B2chica on May 14, 2004, at 12:40:30
last T session was Real tough for me. I finally danced around the actual topics i want to talk about with my T. I'm still not close to talking about them but i was able to admit that their there. i told him that i rationalize myself out of talking about them.
Bad news is i've still been cutting and i'm beginning to wonder if i'll ever stop. and i hate going in and starting Every sessions with "well...i cut...blah blah" i'm sick of it. A Large part of me just wants to tell him i'm fine and i have no problems, so lets just stop.And it just seems like once a week is Forever without talking to him. It takes me 1/2 the session just getting comfortable talking again.
Then after our session i am completely useless the rest of the day. i space out and just contemplate things. can't function at all.
Any experience with this? any advice?
B2c.
Posted by tinydancer on May 14, 2004, at 13:26:39
In reply to issues with talking in sessions..., posted by B2chica on May 14, 2004, at 12:40:30
Hey.
I think you're being really hard on yourself unnecessarily. The important thing is that you have taken steps and you are going to your sessions. You haven't given up, even though its very hard.
How long have you been with your current T? Are you satisfied with the treatment you are getting? I am also a self injurer. I know how hard it is. I understand being tired of your own self and your own problems.
Can you get more than one appointment a week? Also, I find that it is best for me to schedule my appointments first thing in the day and not to schedule anything else. I plan ahead that I'm not going to be doing well. When I was working I did not work on the day that I went to therapy for example. Is that possible for you?
Right now, try to stop beating yourself up for the cutting. Just stop a minute, take a deep breath, and let it go. You are coping in the only way you can. You did cut, and that moment is over now. Now you can try to forgive yourself, and move on, and do your best to get through the hard moments as best as you can.
I find that the harder we fight back against instinctive behavior and feelings, the harder they get on us. Try letting go a little bit and trust yourself to get through this. You don't just stop cutting one day, suddenly. Doesn't work that way!
Sending you lots of hugs and hope that you feel welcome and safe to post here as much as you need to.
Posted by Dinah on May 14, 2004, at 13:35:04
In reply to issues with talking in sessions..., posted by B2chica on May 14, 2004, at 12:40:30
Well, at the risk of being a hypocrite, because sometimes I'm useless after a session as well, is it possible for you to discuss this with your therapist and come up with closing rituals to help you segue back into the real world? For instance, I usually keep an eye on the clock and switch to less intense topics for the last ten minutes. Today I forgot. :( Perhaps you could do a guided relaxation tape when you get home.
Is there any possibility of moving to twice a week sessions, perhaps with the promise that you'll try to reduce self injury between sessions? A week could sometimes seem forever to me, but it seems much easier to hold out for a few days.
And for starting sessions, I don't really have a problem with it now, but I used to bring written things with me. Posts or journals or letters I'd write to him after our last session so that I could put it aside and get back to real life. It's not spontaneous, but it did move things along. Now I'm comfortable with him that starting never seems to be a problem. And since I see him twice a week, it often just seems to be a continuation of the prior session.
Just some ideas.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 14, 2004, at 14:16:35
In reply to issues with talking in sessions..., posted by B2chica on May 14, 2004, at 12:40:30
> last T session was Real tough for me. I finally danced around the actual topics i want to talk about with my T. I'm still not close to talking about them but i was able to admit that their there. i told him that i rationalize myself out of talking about them.
This is still progress. It takes time to get to the hard topics. Just introducing that there IS a hard topic is a start. I've done the same thing. When I felt like the topic was about to come out, I felt like I could literally hear brakes squealing in my head, and I put a stop to it. We talked about me stopping it for the rest of the session, and my T didn't pressure me to talk about it. That made it easier the next time, and I started to talk more about it.
> A Large part of me just wants to tell him i'm fine and i have no problems, so lets just stop.
Of course you feel this way, because you do want to be fine. And the work it takes gets tiring. It's up and down. It can be slow progress that is hard to notice. But this is your ultimate goal, isn't it? It's just that there is no magical solution, although we all wish for it.
>
> Then after our session i am completely useless the rest of the day. i space out and just contemplate things. can't function at all.I have had the same response recently. In fact, I am taking a mental health day today. I had no appt's at work, so I stayed home so that I could be comfortable and work at my own pace. Sometimes, the therapy IS intense, and it affects you outside of the session. I found this happened more at the beginning, and in times when something new was being worked on. That's kind of where I am at right now. In between, the sessions don't take as much out of me, and I am usually able to go back to work or get on with my day without as much fatigue or spaciness. But it varies.
I think that planning for some self-care time is an excellent idea, even if it means allowing yourself the space to recharge after sessions. Maybe doing yoga, taking a warm bath, snuggling with your pet (I did that yesterday after my session) or meditating can help. Or watching a funny movie.
Take care, and hang in there. It's a process that is hard, but most often worth it.
((((B2c))))
gg
Posted by finelinebob on May 14, 2004, at 14:40:54
In reply to issues with talking in sessions..., posted by B2chica on May 14, 2004, at 12:40:30
> last T session was Real tough for me. I finally danced around the actual topics i want to talk about with my T. I'm still not close to talking about them but i was able to admit that their there. i told him that i rationalize myself out of talking about them.
> Bad news is i've still been cutting and i'm beginning to wonder if i'll ever stop...Part of why I injure myself at times has a lot to do with that physical pain drowning out the emotional pain. Besides the endorphins that physical pain apparently releases, I think I get a lot of psychological relief as well. With such powerful "rewards" kicking in, I think I can understand a little better why I respond to my most intense emotional pains with self-injury -- the net effect, psychologically, of that response is "positive".
B2chica, I've found that I've gone through four different stages in my therapy. First, I talked about what I **wanted** to talk about. Second, I began talking about what I **needed** to talk about. Next, once I really had a better understanding of myself and had developed a great deal of trust in my T, I started talking about what I **didn't want** to talk about. These days, some of the things that come up are things so painful, I wouldn't even let myself admit to or acknowledge them -- those eureka! sorts of moments when you realize just how well you've pulled the wool over your own eyes for so long.
Talking about things I don't want to talk about makes part of me very angry. Doing so is sort of a betrayal of me by me, and I can get pretty self-abusive about that betrayal. Hitting that fourth level -- actually revealing to someone else, no matter how much I trust her, something I felt it necessary to hide from myself -- well, my anger and self-abuse know no bounds. It took, I dunno ... a year? more? for me to learn how to speak when I activate that anger and self-loathing. I literally mean "speak" -- I would think the words, but my jaw wouldn't move, no air would come out of my lungs, nothing.
I don't know if you feel any resonance with any of this, but I just wanted to share that and say I've been in a similar place. "Dancing around the topics" ... before I learned to confront this "censor" inside of me and get the better of him, I had this metaphor or "vision" I used to explain how it felt to my T: I saw myself out in the desert somewhere at night, in a small clearing and surrounded by these huge boulders, dancing around a huge bonfire. I always felt that my "answers" were in the fire, but I could never get myself to turn around and look at it -- I was always looking instead at the shadows my dance would cast upon the boulders.
If this is *at all* familiar, then I think you are sooooooooo very close to making a breakthrough for yourself. Being able to stop the dance and face the part of you calling the steps is so hard, but once you succeed it can get easier and easier the more you do it. For me, it's still always a very hard thing to do, but I don't have "lockjaw" for 40 minutes trying to say one word anymore ... or for even 5 minutes. 1 minute, sure. 2 on occasion. But not 5, definitely not 5! And I still get incredibly angry with myself, but I can wrestle with that part of me and win. The more I take control back from that part of me, the less I feel I need to hurt myself.
hth, and hang in there!!
flb
Posted by ghost on May 14, 2004, at 15:13:56
In reply to Re: issues with talking in sessions... » B2chica, posted by finelinebob on May 14, 2004, at 14:40:54
i wish i had some magic words for you. but i just wanted you to know that i feel the same way. it takes me half the session to start talking about the "important" stuff, and then by the time next week rolls around, it starts all over again, like i'm meeting a stranger for the first time. it's almost like "out of sight, out of mind" and i forget the T exists until the next visit.
i had a visit with a T yesterday and i was in such a manicky mood that i was laughing and having a grand old time-- but never talking about real ISSUES. she probably thinks i'm wasting her time. i just couldn't open up, but i could be cheerful and talkative about things that don't matter. (which is a pleasant change, i admit, but not very productive from a therapy standpoint-- i do have issues to address).
i wish i had magic words. but do know that you're not alone... i'm working though it too. i think more than once a week is the real answer--- so we don't have time to put the T out of mind, and so we still feel close to the T by the time the next visit rolls around. but i know those arent options for me anyway. i hope you can work something out.
(((((((b2c)))))))))))
Posted by Aphrodite on May 14, 2004, at 16:17:55
In reply to issues with talking in sessions..., posted by B2chica on May 14, 2004, at 12:40:30
I have no words of wisdom for you since I have the same problem with not talking about the elephants in the room, but I wanted you to know I can relate and that I could feel your frustration in your post.
However, I'm terribly concerned that you hurt yourself. It's probably a vicious cycle -- you're in pain, you want to talk about it but can't -- you become frustrated -- the combination of pain and frustration makes you want to injure yourself -- then you're back at square one. I hope you are on your way to releasing that pain. You sound as though you are close -- I know you will get there. In the meantime, please take care of yourself.
Posted by cubic_me on May 14, 2004, at 18:30:30
In reply to issues with talking in sessions..., posted by B2chica on May 14, 2004, at 12:40:30
I can really relate to how you are feeling too. It sounds like you're working through a hard part of therapy - but it will pass and it will get easier.
I sometimes feel like I'll never get better too, and after more than a year of therapy I still cut sometimes, but that doesn't mean that therapy isn't working, it just means that I need my old coping mechanisms sometimes. Therapy is hard, and occasionally it brings up (or represses) more than our 'normal' coping mechanisms can cope with - sometimes the balence is tipped into SI, but thats nothing to be ashamed of. It's good that you tell your therapist about the cutting (I'm kinda the opposite, in that I don't bring it up unless she does). If you absolutely need the cutting for now, that's fine as long as it's safe (using clean blades and not going too deep), it's something that will reduce as you begin to aquire new, healthier coping mechanisms.
Therapy often wipes me out for the rest of the day too. I tend to prefer afternoon sessions so that I can at least do something useful in the morning. If I have to do other things after, I often write down my feelings and leave them 'on the page' as it were, until I have time to come back and process them.
Posted by Poet on May 15, 2004, at 2:38:38
In reply to issues with talking in sessions..., posted by B2chica on May 14, 2004, at 12:40:30
Hi B2chica,
I'm not what my therapist calls a blurter. She's okay with it, she knows not to push me. I wouldn't have any patience with someone like me, but she does.
It's okay to go slow.
Poet
Posted by shadows721 on May 15, 2004, at 18:37:20
In reply to issues with talking in sessions..., posted by B2chica on May 14, 2004, at 12:40:30
I get frustrated with myself too, because I tend to open up right as it's time to leave. I think it has to do with trust for me. It takes me time to feel comfortable with the T. I feel this has to do with just accepting myself as I am and trust that I am moving in the time that is right for me.
Please don't be hard on yourself. This is hard work you are doing and maybe unconsciously you are doing in the right timing already. But, if you feel this is still a problem, start off your next session by stating, -I feel that I am avoiding talking about _______, because of _________. Maybe by starting off on the topic, you may feel like you are working more toward your personal goal.
Posted by B2chica on May 15, 2004, at 18:43:39
In reply to Re: issues with talking in sessions... » B2chica, posted by finelinebob on May 14, 2004, at 14:40:54
>>some of the things that come up are things so painful, I wouldn't even let myself admit to or acknowledge them -- moments you realize how well you've pulled the wool over your own eyes for so long.
this is one of the toughest. since i've started therapy, i've had a few things come to me that i have forgotten. I'm mad at him and me for making those visuals come back, i was happy with them tucked down.
My biggest problem is that i go back and forth, somedays i stay curled up with so much pain wanting to scream, scream out everything that has happened, to tell my T. But then by the time my appt comes i've gone a complete 360, and talked myself out of saying anything, partly cuz i can't, and partly cuz i look at my "so called problems" and look at others and say mine are NOTHING compared to them...i feel angry, guilty, stupid, selfish, and worthless for wanting to tell.
>> Talking about things I don't want to talk about makes part of me very angry. Doing so is sort of a betrayal of me by me, and I can get pretty self-abusive about that betrayal.When i saw this i HAD to reply to you. This is WORD FOR WORD EXACTLY how i feel...BETRAYAL, ANGRY. Even just talking around the topics last week made me feel Awful, and found a new spot to cut...unfortunately a very nice spot.
> I don't know if you feel any resonance with any of this, but I just wanted to share that and say I've been in a similar place. "Dancing around the topics" ...I was always looking instead at the shadows my dance would cast upon the boulders.
-if you don't mind i think i will use this quote to describe this to my T. maybe it's a start?
>> If this is *at all* familiar,
.VERY.>>but I don't have "lockjaw" for 40 minutes trying to say one word anymore ...
-this makes me think there is hope...i really needed to hear these things flb
Thank You for understanding and for sharing.
((((FLB))))
Posted by B2chica on May 15, 2004, at 19:07:47
In reply to Re: issues with talking in sessions... » B2chica, posted by Poet on May 15, 2004, at 2:38:38
Tinydancer, i am very happy with my T, but i can't help but think i'm wasting his time...part of my problem also. Thank you for your support and understanding.
Dinah, i checked on the sessions, he's SO busy that unless it's an emergency he doesn't do more than once a week.
GG, you're right...i DO want to feel better. I guess that's why i keep pushing myself to go back each week. It does feel like very slow progress. I'll hang in there with babblers like you. Thanks.
FLB-read separate response on board.
Ghost, i know you are getting over you're own hurdles right now, thank you so much for the hugs...(and the site on true porn stories...:)
Aphrodite, it's funny you mentioned about elephants in the room....last night i had several wierd dreams- ALL including elephants...for REAL! maybe this is telling me somthing.
Cubic me, you made me cry. i just brokedown when i read you're post. you made me feel completely accepted, not judged the way you talked about SI so matter of fact...you'll never know how much this helped me today. Thank you for caring.
i try to schedule my T appt. about 3 or 4 that way i can work most of the morning and just let go the rest of the day. this helps.Poet- luckily my T knows i'm not a blurter either- he reassures me that we will go at a pace i'm comfortable with- but often checks to see if i need to change that pace.
(((((You all are the best))))).
I have my next appt. monday at 2:00. maybe i'll just print off all your responses and take them with me... i need all the help i can get.
Thanx
B2c.
Posted by B2chica on May 15, 2004, at 19:40:09
In reply to Re: issues with talking in sessions..., posted by shadows721 on May 15, 2004, at 18:37:20
> I get frustrated with myself too, because I tend to open up right as it's time to leave. I think it has to do with trust for me.
i do have major trust issues. i do trust my T, but i think maybe it's a comfort thing? i open up about the last 15 min too.
> Maybe by starting off on the topic, you may feel like you are working more toward your personal goal.Thanks for the tips Shadow, i'll give em a try next session. Thank you for the support.
B2c.
Posted by finelinebob on May 15, 2004, at 21:05:07
In reply to Re: issues with talking in sessions... » finelinebob, posted by B2chica on May 15, 2004, at 18:43:39
> My biggest problem is that i go back and forth, somedays i stay curled up with so much pain wanting to scream, scream out everything that has happened, to tell my T...
Reliving that pain is so damn hard, but sometimes the only way to defeat these things is to go THROUGH them. Just remember: you survived the pain the first time, when you had no support, no one to help, maybe someone else actively contributing to the pain who isn't there right now, and you have so many more skills now to help yourself. The pain may be the same, but you are SO much more today. When you are ready, you will face it and kick its @ss.
>and partly cuz i look at my "so called problems" and look at others and say mine are NOTHING compared to them...i feel angry, guilty, stupid, selfish, and worthless for wanting to tell.NEVER do that! Pain is pain. You will always be able to find one person somewhere in this cosmos who has suffered more than you, but the suffering of someone else DOES NOTHING to diminish your pain.
There's no calculus of pain. If there was, then we could do something like this: you have 11 pain units (PUs!) and I have 10. So, if I look at you and think my pain is nothing, then all of a sudden you only have 1PU. Meanwhile, neither of us hurt any less for it, do we? ;^)
> > I don't know if you feel any resonance with any of this, but I just wanted to share that and say I've been in a similar place. "Dancing around the topics" ...I was always looking instead at the shadows my dance would cast upon the boulders.
>
> -if you don't mind i think i will use this quote to describe this to my T. maybe it's a start?Absolutely! All flb comments are public domain =^). Maybe if you can visualize stopping the dance and facing that fire, that can give you the calm you need to see what is there in the flames. The day I stopped dancing was a big day for me.
> >>but I don't have "lockjaw" for 40 minutes trying to say one word anymore ...
> -this makes me think there is hope...If you get this sort of lockjaw, if all you can do is get out some sort of "blllllyyyyeeeeaaaaahhhhhhoooooowwww!" or primal scream or anything ... well, again, it helped me.
> i really needed to hear these things flb
> Thank You for understanding and for sharing.
> ((((FLB))))right back at'cha!
(((((b2c)))))flb
Posted by B2chica on May 15, 2004, at 22:17:47
In reply to (((((b2c))))), posted by finelinebob on May 15, 2004, at 21:05:07
I just have no words flb.
i've been sitting here crying for the last 10min trying to think how to respond to this...
God.
i just don't know how...I wish you could be there Monday for my T appt holding my hand. i already printed this off, maybe i'll bring it in and just pretend it's you.
>Just remember: you survived the pain the first time, when you had no support, no one to help, maybe someone else actively contributing to the pain who isn't there right now, and you have so many more skills now to help yourself.
> There's no calculus of pain.
--Since you've put it this way, I think as long as i live i'll never forget the PU factor...:)> The day I stopped dancing was a big day for me.
--i can't wait till this day. Thanks for the words of hope.
> If you get this sort of lockjaw, if all you can do is get out some sort of "blllllyyyyeeeeaaaaahhhhhhoooooowwww!" or primal scream or anything ... well, again, it helped me.Between this is the PU's i was laughing through my tears. i just can't tell you how this one reply has made me feel.
I can't tell you how thankful i am that you were online tonight. and that i came in to work to check on some things. (have no computer at home). I was beginning to worry about getting through till my appt on monday afternoon...now i know i can just read and reread your comments.From the bottom of this pained and confused heart is my DEEPEST THANKS to you FLB.
B2c.
Posted by finelinebob on May 15, 2004, at 23:59:55
In reply to Re: (((((b2c))))) » finelinebob, posted by B2chica on May 15, 2004, at 22:17:47
If you need it:
finelinebob on AIM
finelinebob at mac dot com for email, but type it rightI talk to my T at 3, but since you said afternoon, I'll do this meditation technique my Tai Chi teacher showed me for directing energy to others ... I'll be there if I can =^)
flb
Posted by finelinebob on May 17, 2004, at 18:21:33
In reply to Re: alking in sessions... » shadows721, posted by B2chica on May 15, 2004, at 19:40:09
Posted by B2chica on May 18, 2004, at 13:20:18
In reply to B2chica!! ... how did it go? (nm), posted by finelinebob on May 17, 2004, at 18:21:33
it was good and bad. You were there :)
(thanks btw).
it was bad cuz i still didn't quite talk about what i wanted to...however, it still went pretty good, i think.
I told him about this site, about what we talked about -which was good cuz i could at least get that out- i told him how you and your responses made me feel. And then i was able to tell him about my weekend (sunday was awful-mon. not good either but his appt was then.)
-and- i remember when i was in the hospital i had reached such a depression that there are several times i just completely zoned out-and i mean that literally, next thing i new like 1/2 hour went by and i just remembered everything getting fuzzy. Well i think that may have happened during yesterday's appt. I remember getting a little emotional about what we were talking about and i (as always) tried to suck it up and say i was "fine with that" then i remember looking at my pen in my notebook and everything got a little fuzzy, i then heard him calling my name and things got clear, i felt burning hot and i couldn't remember anything about what we were talking about- i had/still don't know what the conversations was so i just started to talk about what we did when i first came in- i also looked at my watch, i know quite a few minutes passed but i don't know how many cuz i didn't know what time it was before.Right before i left, I told him that i stopped taking my AD. i know...i know- but that's a whole other discussion.
-anyway, then i went home, completely drained but feeling ok about the session. i slept for a few hours, and still felt good about the session. i think that's a good sign.
i didn't go straight home and SI.I am SO grateful to you flb.
just can't THANK YOU enough!
oh, and thanks for the AIM info! i would have but i already left, though i wish i could have talked sunday (was out of town....BIG crappy day!) but it's over now, and i just have to worry about THIS week...right.-flb, i think maybe you're good luck. I think i'll bring you again next week too if you don't mind ;^}
B2c.
Posted by babbgal on May 18, 2004, at 14:39:05
In reply to Re: issues with talking in sessions... » B2chica, posted by finelinebob on May 14, 2004, at 14:40:54
B2chica, I hope I'm not jumping in at the last minute; I'm new here, and your posting touched me...
I am a cutter, too. I have an agreement with my T. that I call him when I cut to report the incident. But he does not issue any ultimatums, and we discuss any incidents in therapy. It's difficult, and he senses when it's hard and when we can talk in depth and when he needs to back off.
Like flb said, I recently started talking about what I **didn't want** to talk about. I told my T. something I have never told anyone, something dating back to high school (I'm 35 now). It was just about the hardest thing I've ever done. My T. said, "Well, here you are, inviting trouble," meaning, "here you are, confronting yourself with some really hard work." I was finally bound and determined to make this therapy more than previous therapy, which I felt was me whining about "day to day" issues, like the fights my husband and I had. I was so disillusioned with past therapy, I felt like I accomplished nothing. I want to really accomplish something with this therapist; get down to the real issues. This therapist is too good to do otherwise; I am ready.
But of course, yes, it is so hard. And yes, there are times when I cut. And when my therapist says, "Now that we're out of crisis mode" -- I started seeing him when I was going through a huge crisist at work; unbelieveable abuse by my boss-- "I need you to take the reins" I am usually quite terrified! Sometimes I can manage to take the reins and sometimes I can't. I have come to be able to say "I can't" and "I don't know." But there are also times when I tentatively take the reins and say things that I think don't make sense in the therapeutic setting, that end up making beautiful sense, and we go with that.
Please don't be afraid. Hugs.
Posted by finelinebob on May 18, 2004, at 15:38:31
In reply to Re: Thanks to you flb it went..., posted by B2chica on May 18, 2004, at 13:20:18
> it was good and bad. You were there :)
> (thanks btw).
> it was bad cuz i still didn't quite talk about what i wanted to...however, it still went pretty good, i think.
It takes a lot of hard work ... I like what babbgal's T said about "inviting trouble" = "confronting yourself with some really hard work." You have just got to remember that every step you take towards addressing those issues you "can't face" (my words), even if you don't take a step but manage to look over your shoulder: it's all progress and it's all important.
> -flb, i think maybe you're good luck. I think i'll bring you again next week too if you don't mind ;^}Of course not! =^)
flb
Posted by B2chica on May 19, 2004, at 10:24:17
In reply to Re: issues with talking in sessions..., posted by babbgal on May 18, 2004, at 14:39:05
never too late babbgal.
This site just never ceases to amaze me. I was really starting to feel the frustration of my feelings vs. my age. I'm 31 and feel like since i've been doing this off and on since i was about 14, that well, i'm no teenager anymore i shouldn't be acting like this anymore.
It just makes me feel...OK..that i'm not alone in this age with these feelings.
-i do like what you said about 'inviting trouble', i just wish i could get further along. I know it will just take time...i mean i've Never talked about this stuff with ANYONE for 20 years (not even myself with some of it) so i should assume it's going to take longer than 3 months to get this stuff out.
and like flb says, as long as i stay on this road, as long as i keep trying to get further along...then i'm making progress, it's slow but it's progress.Thanks for the hugs, can ALWAYS use those babbgal
B2c.
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