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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by daisym on September 14, 2004, at 11:40:10
In reply to I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER****, posted by crushedout on September 13, 2004, at 21:25:03
crushed,
What has changed so that you find yourself back here? Something shifted...and seems to have shifted back. That might give you a clue.
I think the suggestion of a Pdoc who can do therapy is a good one. You need some perspective on this. My best guess is that your T fills a huge void in your life and until you figure out how to close it up and get it met some other way, you won't get through the transference. I also think that it isn't all transference. You've developed real feelings for her and unrequited love is about as painful a thing as anyone can go through. It does happen. If there is any emotional develop arrest (think teenagers) it can be even worse. But the only way to get "over" it is to move past it. Time does help heal, but not if you are retraumatizing yourself over and over again. It is another form of SI I think...continuing to torture yourself with what you can't have.
I wish I could hold you until the pain eases off. You really sound like you could use that. Make sure you are taking care of your wounds and not doing too much. It would be better to write, write write here, than cut.
Hugs from me.
Daisy
Posted by BigFish on September 14, 2004, at 14:46:44
In reply to Re: I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER****, posted by daisym on September 14, 2004, at 11:40:10
Dear crushedout,
I'm sorry you're feeling rotten. I'm in a similar situation - I'm nuts about my therapist. DaisyM brought up a point that I really agree with - it is possible to develop REAL feelings for one's therapist. Over the last 8 months that I've been in therapy I've come to know the essence of who my therapist is as a human being. Obviously, that doesn't include details of his life but it is enough to know a lot about who he is as a person and enough to know that I like him for who he is, not for who he might symbolically represent to me. The idea that I'm going to talk to him about "working through" my feelings for him and thereafore "get over" him seems completely and totally ABSURD! The idea that participating in that process would somehow be theraputic is absurd. Having my heart broken is somehow therapeutic? Ridiculous. It seems that I either decide that I can deal with the torturousness of the situation or leave. Does this resonate with you at all? I apologize if this seems all about me - but I wanted to share my perspective on it with you and ask you if you think you might be having a similar exerience. I feel so d*mn alone in this.
> I also think that it isn't all transference. You've developed real feelings for her and unrequited love is about as painful a thing as anyone can go through. It does happen. If there is any emotional develop arrest (think teenagers) it can be even worse. But the only way to get "over" it is to move past it. Time does help heal, but not if you are retraumatizing yourself over and over again. It is another form of SI I think...continuing to torture yourself with what you can't have.
Posted by lookdownfish on September 14, 2004, at 16:33:18
In reply to I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER****, posted by crushedout on September 13, 2004, at 21:25:03
It's totally understandable how her messing up with the email makes you feel so hurt. It occurs to me that she was unconsciously was trying to communicate something to you by this. Maybe there is a part of her that would like you to be part of her family. Or the less good interpretation is that she is reminding you that she has a family that you are not part of and cannot be part of. This sounds pretty cruel, but its taking place at an unconsious level. I'm sure she wouldn't mean to hurt you like this. You might feel better once you've talked it through with her...?
>> I feel like a broken record. I'm back in transference-miseryland. I feel like I've been in denial, or else maybe I had a reprieve but really my transference was just lurking below the surface, hiding out, taking new forms. It hadn't really left.
That's just it - I sometimes think my transference is miraculously cured, but it just doesn't work like that. The transference pain may diminish for a while, as yours did, but its ready to bite back. Is it because things in your life aren't going so well and you're more vulnerable?
Something difficult happened to me a couple of weeks ago, and I've been obsessing terribly about my therapist again since then.Take care - sorry you're going through this
lookdownfish
Posted by Susan47 on September 14, 2004, at 19:36:02
In reply to P.S. re carpets, posted by crushedout on September 13, 2004, at 21:36:26
You're not weird, not one little bit. Nice carpets are a big deal.
Feel good about *you* soon (((crushedout))).
Posted by Susan47 on September 14, 2004, at 19:42:12
In reply to Re: I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER**** » daisym, posted by BigFish on September 14, 2004, at 14:46:44
BigFish, you're not alone in what you're feeling. I mean obviously you are in one respect, but I know lots of others feel the way you do about their therapists. Therapy's been helpful for me one a certain level, but on another it's opened a lot of old wounds and made new ones all its own.
Posted by Susan47 on September 14, 2004, at 19:45:04
In reply to Re: I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER**** » crushedout, posted by lookdownfish on September 14, 2004, at 16:33:18
lookdownfish,
What terrible thing happened to you? I hope you're going to be okay, here's a virtual hug.(LDF)
Posted by Susan47 on September 14, 2004, at 19:52:28
In reply to Crushed out, posted by Susan47 on September 14, 2004, at 19:36:02
are a big deal, I mean they are when you don't have them and never can see yourself having them. Ouch, everything's a big deal when you can't have it isn't it?
Posted by crushedout on September 14, 2004, at 20:31:27
In reply to Re: P.S. re carpets » crushedout, posted by gardenergirl on September 13, 2004, at 22:53:20
hi gg,my boyfriend keeps telling me to get another t, too. i saw my t today and we talked about how we have to work on this. but i feel like we've had this conversation before and we've never made any real progress. i don't understand why. maybe it's my fault.
she won't let me see another t while i see her. otherwise i think your suggestion makes a lot of sense (a transition period). do you think i should do it without telling her?
why a pdoc? i don't understand that suggestion.
Posted by crushedout on September 14, 2004, at 20:51:37
In reply to Re: I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER**** » crushedout, posted by terrics on September 14, 2004, at 6:01:57
terrics,
i'm so glad to hear you found a new t who's helping you, one with strong boundaries. last i'd heard from you, it sounded like you were a mess. yes, i think you may be right. but you know how it is: i also don't want her to have good boundaries, because i like to penetrate them as much as possible.
this is why i feel like a broken record. it's always the same thing. i whine and complain, everyone tells me to move on, and i say, i can't. ugh.
Posted by crushedout on September 14, 2004, at 20:53:25
In reply to Re: I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER**** » crushedout, posted by allisonf on September 14, 2004, at 9:15:40
"I think it is very hard to deal with when your therapist keeps giving you little parts of herself to dwell on."Wow, yeah. You put that very nicely. I think you may be right, it's hard. and yet i long for her to give me more. why does she do that? why doesn't she realize it's destructive?
Posted by crushedout on September 14, 2004, at 21:56:26
In reply to Re: I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER****, posted by daisym on September 14, 2004, at 11:40:10
Daisy,I don't know what has changed. My new relationship's been strained lately, but I don't know if that's a cause or an effect of the transference resurfacing. I'm pretty sure that no relationship can work for me until I get over this transference (I actually *feel* like no relationship can ever work, but that just doesn't make sense. I mean, I feel like it can't work because I can never get over her.)
I think you're right that she fills some enormous void, but I don't see how I'm ever going to find another way to fill it. It's just not happening. I can't even figure out what it is.
Today's session made me feel hopeful. She said that she feels like we keep having the same conversation over and over again. I tell her that my feelings for her are a huge problem in my life. She asks me why I think they are. I convince her that they are, and then we never actually get to talking about the feelings. I end up dissociating, or bailing out somehow. Or maybe she bails out. I don't know.
I do often feel like, as gg said, that's she's failing me -- this just shouldn't be going on that long. What's her name -- the author of "In Session" says that if an erotic transference lasts a long time, the T must be doing something to encourage it. I often wonder if that's true. But then she convinces me it's not.
Posted by fallsfall on September 14, 2004, at 22:01:33
In reply to Re: I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER**** » terrics, posted by crushedout on September 14, 2004, at 20:51:37
I am notoriously bad at figuring out when to stop working on something - when it is time to give up. Deciding to change therapists was one of the hardest things I've ever done (deciding to leave my husband of 19 years was easier - the decision seemed clearer somehow). I am in agony a lot with my current therapist, but I can tell that we ARE making progress - we are getting something resolved, or at least clarified. With my old therapist I wasn't making progress - the issues were essentially the same, and it seemed like I was trying really hard to work on them but nothing seemed to make any difference.
It seems to me that you have been open with your therapist, that you have told her how you are feeling, and that you have been telling her this for months. Do you have any sense that she is understanding you? That she knows the pain that you are in? I thought my first therapist understood me, but when I tried to get into more detail it became clear that she really had no idea what I was going through. I didn't think that I could have been any clearer with her. That was when I knew that I had to leave. If you think that you haven't been clear with your therapist, then be brutally honest. Even if you have to write it out in advance to be completely sure that there can be no misunderstanding. Then ask her to show you that she does understand - ask her to explain it in her own words. (I know that I'm projecting some of my stuff on you here, but I also think that if you can be sure that she understands but can't (or won't) help you or that she is not able to understand despite your best effort, that you will have an easier time letting her go. Because then you will know that there wasn't anything more that you could have done - that you did all that you could, but it still wasn't helping. I beat myself up if I think that there was anything else that I could have done.)
I think I'm rambling here... I guess that what I've learned from my experiences is that if I'm sure that I've done everything I can to be open and honest, but things still don't seem to be moving in a positive direction, that it is time to move on. Crushed, you *do* know that you can't "have" her. If you can't learn about yourself by having this pain, then why should you stay in this pain? Leaving her *will* be painful, but I truly believe that the pain of leaving will dissipate over time. Staying with her *is* painful - you have proven that. If the pain of staying isn't changing, then you would be better off going through the "leaving" pain, and getting to a place where you won't be in pain.
I ended up in many of the same positions with my second therapist that I had with my first. But because he was a different person, I was able to see the patterns more clearly. Plus, he was more focused on working on transference issues, I think that has made a big difference.
You deserve to live without this kind of pain.
Posted by tryingtobewise on September 14, 2004, at 23:36:01
In reply to I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER****, posted by crushedout on September 13, 2004, at 21:25:03
Hi Crushedout...
I am relatively new here so I don't know your whole story, but I can gather the gist of it here and you have certainly received some wonderful & thoughtful insight & suggestions.
I will try to add some levity. 10 years ago I started seeing a therapist who I developed a huge infatuation with. I thought about him all the time, wondered what his life was like, you know the drill. After a couple of years I finished up therapy with him so I could start having combined therapy/med management with my (female) pdoc. Not long after that, the T contacted me (boundary & ethical violation but that isn't my point here) because he was needing an office manager & low and behold I started working for him (& still do) and several other Ts in the group. I could not believe my "luck" in being invited into his professional/personal life.
It turns out my "perfect" therapist is on his *4th* marriage (I kid you not), has been disciplined & sanctioned by our state twice, is a chain smoker, loves to gamble, and is involved in the custody battle to end all custody battles. I still think he is a wondeful man who helps many, many people, but I KNOW his clients would die of shock if they were able to see behind the scenes.
So I guess my point, which I'm know you already know on one level, is that part of the magic of therapy is having someone who seems to "get it all right" to look up to & want to emulate, make proud, and be with. Maybe it will be easier for you if you recognize that if you were to personally know your therapist you would probably be extremely let down in many ways.
Good luck. I know it is very painful to feel things are so one sided.
TTBW
Posted by lookdownfish on September 15, 2004, at 4:53:39
In reply to Re: I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER****, posted by Susan47 on September 14, 2004, at 19:45:04
thanks for your concern susan, don't worry I'm fine really, just dealing with it. a close friend of mine found out he's HIV +ve. he's having a hard time dealing with it and i'm finding it difficult too, but feeling ok about it now. Thanks.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 15, 2004, at 7:47:50
In reply to Re: P.S. re carpets » gardenergirl, posted by crushedout on September 14, 2004, at 20:31:27
Crushed,
Some pdocs do therapy as well. I admit I don't remember if you have one or even are on any meds. I was just including the idea because sometimes T's don't object to pdocs as much as they might to another T. As far as seeing another T without telling her...that's a really tough call. The idea that she won't "allow" you to see another is interesting. I can see her objecting. Does this mean that she would terminate you if you consulted another T? Could you frame it to her as a consultation that may last more than one session...just to work on this one aspect. After that, you can decide whether to stay with your old T or move on to the new.Although the idea of terminating with your old T and starting fresh with a new T...as much as that would likely be very painful...seems a good possiblity, too. In fact, in some ways, if you could do it, I think that might be best.
And please don't take responsibility for failure in therapy to work out an issue on yourself. I really believe your T is not helping you with this out of her own countertransference or perhaps inexperience with an intense transference?
I'm rambling. What I did not mean to suggest about pdoc is that you need meds!
I hope that clarifies.
Take care,
gg
Posted by crushedout on September 15, 2004, at 18:29:51
In reply to Re: I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER**** » daisym, posted by BigFish on September 14, 2004, at 14:46:44
BigFish,Yes. Of course. It totally resonates. It does not make sense to me, on a really visceral level, to try to "work through" my feelings of LOVE. and it does not feel the least bit therapeutic. It just feels like torture and needless pain.
So, the big question is: what the **** do we do? (And is it possible that it actually *is* therapeutic even though it doesn't feel that way?)
> I'm sorry you're feeling rotten. I'm in a similar situation - I'm nuts about my therapist. DaisyM brought up a point that I really agree with - it is possible to develop REAL feelings for one's therapist. Over the last 8 months that I've been in therapy I've come to know the essence of who my therapist is as a human being. Obviously, that doesn't include details of his life but it is enough to know a lot about who he is as a person and enough to know that I like him for who he is, not for who he might symbolically represent to me. The idea that I'm going to talk to him about "working through" my feelings for him and thereafore "get over" him seems completely and totally ABSURD! The idea that participating in that process would somehow be theraputic is absurd. Having my heart broken is somehow therapeutic? Ridiculous. It seems that I either decide that I can deal with the torturousness of the situation or leave. Does this resonate with you at all? I apologize if this seems all about me - but I wanted to share my perspective on it with you and ask you if you think you might be having a similar exerience. I feel so d*mn alone in this.
>
> > I also think that it isn't all transference. You've developed real feelings for her and unrequited love is about as painful a thing as anyone can go through. It does happen. If there is any emotional develop arrest (think teenagers) it can be even worse. But the only way to get "over" it is to move past it. Time does help heal, but not if you are retraumatizing yourself over and over again. It is another form of SI I think...continuing to torture yourself with what you can't have.
>
>
Posted by crushedout on September 15, 2004, at 18:52:33
In reply to Re: I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER**** » crushedout, posted by lookdownfish on September 14, 2004, at 16:33:18
Wow, ldf, that's an interesting thought. I wonder if it's true. It's hard to know since it's unconscious (I'm sure she didn't consciously mean to hurt me also). Maybe it's a good idea to talk about it with her.I think what hurt even more than getting the email was when I told my boyfriend (who's a therapist) about it and he was like, "So what?" And I said, "Well, it's upsetting, being reminded that she has this family. Even though I think it was unintentional, it feels like she's rubbing my face in it." And he was like, "I don't understand what the big deal is. She has a family and believe me, she loves them more than she loves you." I was like, "Thanks for filling me in. I had no idea." Hmph. That made it worse. (Let's just demonize my boyfriend now so I can start idealizing my T again, ok?)
> Is it because things in your life aren't going so well and you're more vulnerable?
I think maybe, partly. My boyfriend and I have kind of been fighting a lot (see, e.g., above).
Thank you so much for your empathy ldf.
Posted by Susan47 on September 15, 2004, at 22:05:09
In reply to Re: I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER**** » allisonf, posted by crushedout on September 14, 2004, at 20:53:25
You're having an awful time with your therapist and I feel so sad for you, I know how you feel it hasn't been long since I've been there it's so so hard my heart really goes out to you. (crushedout)
Posted by BigFish on September 15, 2004, at 23:01:21
In reply to Re: I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER**** » BigFish, posted by crushedout on September 15, 2004, at 18:29:51
Dear crushedout,
That is indeed the question: what the **** do we do? I just spent an hour slumped on the floor crying about this. I read "In Session" and my therapist definately qualifies as seductive. I don't know if he knows he's behaving that way, but he is. He started it, but I like him so I haven't confronted him on it - I've let it go. Do you get the feeling that you've been flirted with? I have toyed with the idea of going in to my session tomorrow and telling him I quit. Get it over with. Rip the bandage off in one fell swoop. I tried that last week but somehow he cut me off before I got to the final "I'm thinking about not coming back." I might have to try again tomorrow. I don't know if I'll have the strength, though. At the moment, this is the only solution I can think of. It's extreemely painful. I hope, crushedout, that you have a smoother, more comfortable option. This is the only one that I can see for myself. And I have endlessly wondered if this is therapeutic. I've tried to see it that way to somehow put some distance between me and this d*mn crush - but it just doesn't make any sense. I wish it did.
Thank you for sharing your story here. I hope you're feeling ok.
BigFish
> So, the big question is: what the **** do we do? (And is it possible that it actually *is* therapeutic even though it doesn't feel that way?)
Posted by Susan47 on September 15, 2004, at 23:23:10
In reply to Re: I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER****, posted by BigFish on September 15, 2004, at 23:01:21
From these boards it seems like a bunch of us could get together and write a Book on "Seductive Therapists". Ew. I know they can do it but I'm not sure they always are aware of what they're doing. Hm. I mean, I feel like I've had this experience myself and I really wonder if everybody's projecting or what? I mean, everybody in the room not everybody on the boards. *Sigh* Life.
Posted by terrics on September 16, 2004, at 8:15:13
In reply to Re: I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER**** » terrics, posted by crushedout on September 14, 2004, at 20:51:37
Hi Crushed, I totally understand. If you ever get to the point where you want to try a T.with strong boundries and dbt,email me at: dogsandcatsmany@yahoo.com. If I remember correctly we live fairly close to each other. I do have to admit changing T.s was VERY, VERY hard. Besides, you won't believe this, but I think I am falling for the new one. All this falling in love must be transference. I am going to try to get in depth info on transference. It seems like voodoo that this can happen over and over. The good thing is this time it is NOT mutual. terrics
Posted by Susan47 on September 16, 2004, at 8:20:06
In reply to Re: I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER**** » crushedout, posted by terrics on September 16, 2004, at 8:15:13
It's so funny you say it seems like voodoo because I left a message on my ex-therapist's machine a few days ago and I seriously asked, "Are you a witch? Because sometimes it seems like you must be."
At the time I really meant it. It's a bewitching experience, IMHO.
Posted by Rigby on September 16, 2004, at 9:58:24
In reply to I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER****, posted by crushedout on September 13, 2004, at 21:25:03
Hi Crushed,
My sense is that this email thing wasn't a huge violation on her part--it seems like she screwed up in the beginning, had a hard time finding her way, but she's been holding firm (at least from what you've reported??) with her boundaries.
You are in pain and asking why she can't help. I think that might be one of the hard things about therapy; the therapist can bring up painful things but it's mostly up to us to work through it with some guidance from them. Granted, she should be helping and I suppose that's the question at hand. But from what I can tell, the therapist is one tool that can do "x" amount--the rest is what else we find in the world--what we learn from our friends, lovers--in fiction, poetry, etc.
Not sure if the relationship stress as you say is causing a resurgence in your feelings or vice-versa. It would seem though, unless you were dating a saint, that it would be hard for a lover to hear alot about the person you're truly in love with (or angry with or questioning or whatever the fixation de jeur is.)
Anyway, I guess my main thought is that it sounds like you've hit upon some deep pain and that if you don't work it through with this woman you may get stuck in the same place again with another therapist. I don't know what's going on with your therapy and if she's messing up left and right but if she's not--you probably know in your gut if she is or isn't--then it may mean that it's stuff inside of you vs. some objectively damaging dynamic with this therapist.
She does have a family and, objectively, you do not know her. You've not spent any time with her in the "real world" so if you can wrap your mind around this (this is something that helped me) I could get clear that these feelings were manufactured almost totally by me. She fed into them at times--maybe made mistakes and got lost--but ultimately I had to come to terms with the fact that whatever fantasy I had about her was because of some deep stuff in me.
Ack--I've rambled. Keep us posted!
> I feel like a broken record. I'm back in transference-miseryland. I feel like I've been in denial, or else maybe I had a reprieve but really my transference was just lurking below the surface, hiding out, taking new forms. It hadn't really left.
>
> Last night I called my T to ask if a session was still available today that she had offered me. She emailed me back to say it was gone, but then she emailed me again, ten minutes later, to offer me a different time this week, an afterthought. The significant part was that she accidentally emailed me from her family email address. So it said her last name, husband's last name and then "Family" instead of her name like it usually does. She realized her mistake two minutes later and sent me a third email apologizing. I don't know why but it was kind of like being punched in the stomach. I mean, I'm perfectly aware that she has a family but it just hurts. I know she didn't mean to, but it felt like she was rubbing it in my face. And there are at least three things that hurt: (1) I want to be part of her family; (2) I know she cares more about her family than she does me; and (3) I don't think I'll ever have my own family, or at least not one that feels as good as I imagine hers does. I'll have some crappy, third-rate family with no love and no nice carpets, nothing. The truth is: I have no idea how nice her family is. Maybe it's totally lame. It's all just in my head. But it feels like sh*t anyway.
>
> I need help with this. I wish she could help me through this. Why do I feel so sure that I'd want to be part of her family? Why do I feel so sure I love her? Why do I feel so sure I can never have what I want? (Because the only thing I want is her, that's why.) Anyone else have some good questions for me besides me? Anyone have a way to snap me out of this, bring me to my senses, get me out of lalaland? I'm so sick of myself I can hardly stand it. I'd do myself in if I didn't think that was the most senseless thing imaginable (after all, if I'm dead, there's *no* hope of sleeping with my T). I SI'd tonight for the first time in months. Let me stop there.
>
> Help? Anyone?
Posted by fallsfall on September 16, 2004, at 9:59:19
In reply to Re: I'm a broken record ****TRIGGER**** » crushedout, posted by terrics on September 16, 2004, at 8:15:13
Experiencing the same transference feelings when I changed therapists (within 6 weeks!!) helped to convince me that it was definately more about me than about them... And having that piece of transference resolved by my second therapist gave me hope that therapy could really help.
Good luck, Terrics!
Posted by crushedout on September 17, 2004, at 20:59:40
In reply to Crushed out, posted by Susan47 on September 14, 2004, at 19:36:02
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