![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 49. Go back in thread:
Posted by Pfinstegg on October 31, 2004, at 22:03:21
In reply to Re: The Brain » Pfinstegg, posted by littleone on October 31, 2004, at 21:44:52
I love reading about the brain, too, and there's been lots of exciting new concepts, lately. I find that what I've been reading has helped me accept how little I really know about what went on with me (especially, for me, lost years of 6 to 9), and has helped me a lot to have a more open mind in therapy. I just don't know what going to happen next there! But I do have a great T, who reminds me that he wants *all* of me in there with him, and, most of all, the parts that are carrying the memories of abuse and neglect.
That's such a vivid memory (and wonderful description) of the erupting volcano!
Posted by littleone on October 31, 2004, at 22:27:28
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people* » littleone, posted by Daisym on October 31, 2004, at 19:47:40
> That said, it sounds reasonable to me to be careful about false memories. We know that lots of things we see or do as children are misinterpretted so they can be "wrong" memories, not really "false."
I like this description so much better. I'm a very moral and ethical person and it causes me angst to think of some memories as "false". It seems to insinuate that they are lies. I feel so much more comfortable thinking of them as misinterpretations that can be constantly reviewed as further puzzle pieces come to hand.
>It has been my experience that repressed memories come both suddenly and also in pieces, like a puzzle. I always liken it to having a conversation with someone about a movie...they say something that makes you remember another part, and then you say something, and the more you talk about it, the more you remember.
I seem to relate to everything better when it is described metaphorically. Must be because I'm a visual person and the metaphors paint a picture. Thanks for the alternative pictures Daisy.
> Pulling the thread, my therapist calls it.
ACK! Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love your therapist (is that called Transcontinental Transferance :) ) but by "pulling the thread" I think of one of those old cartoons where the character has a knitted jumper and a thread gets pulled and pulled and pulled until there is no jumper left, just a big pile of tangled thread. I think that some days I'm the jumper and some days I'm the tangled thread.
> Is it possible that you felt like someone died at some point during the abuse?
It's interesting that you say this. I've read that when a child is subjected to say repeated emotional abuse, it can get to the point where the child may wish to simply die. If the survival instinct is strong enough in the child, it will prevent a physical death, but the child can experience a sort of emotional death. One where the hurt is split off and repressed. As this happens more and more, each split is like another little death.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 31, 2004, at 22:33:09
In reply to Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people*, posted by littleone on October 31, 2004, at 16:35:20
> I always thought that if a memory was repressed you would obviously have no recollection of the event, however, wouldn't you sense something there?
When I try to remember one particular aspect of my childhood, I have no problem remembering something said to me..."What are you crying about? I'll give you something to cry about!" I know I heard that many times, but I don't recall what happened after.....not explicitly. I know what happened after, but I couldn't describe a single incident in any kind of detail. I dissociated from it. Yet I do not doubt in the slightest what happened.
Something Mark said in that other thread helped me to remember something. I have an inordinate fear of wasps. I know they're just going about their waspy business, but they freak me out. Something must have happened.....and then I remembered. I was maybe seven years old, and checking out an abandoned farmhouse on some vacant land, probably one that burned down. There was a woodstove, one of those slim round ones, and I opened the door on it, out of curiosity. It was all one big wasp nest inside.
I have no idea what made me remember that, but a day before I did, I couldn't have explained the emotional reaction to a little wasp. Bees don't bother me, but wasps....
Memory is a funny thing sometimes, but that doesn't make it incredible....literally not credible. I believe what I remember.
Lar
Posted by littleone on October 31, 2004, at 22:44:59
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people* » littleone, posted by Dinah on October 31, 2004, at 21:04:47
>But only the memory *that* it happened is left. The details are gone.
I know exactly what you mean there. That pretty much sums up my whole childhood memories. I *know* I used to love playing hopscotch as a kid, but I cannot remember a single hopscotch incident. Not that they'd have been truly memorable anyway. It's not like they were surrounded by controversy :). But it would still be nice to have pleasant, uneventful memories too to balance things out.
Anyway, I have another question for you. I don't dissociate as such. I know I kind of just fade away when I'm with my T sometimes, but I'm never far far away (just anchored offshore a little). But I was thinking that there would be a strong a link between your (or anyone's) dissociation and memory. Wouldn't disassociation be a way for you to blank out the present moment, deny the existance of whatever is occuring and also deny the future memory of that present moment? Did I make sense just then? When you disassociate, do you have no memory of what has happened? Do you even have a general sense that something happened? Also, I've kind of wondered if when you "go away" are your senses aware enough to know when it is safe to come back, or do you literally *need* to be pulled back by someone?
> About dead people in particular. My family was a big open casket funeral family. And the funerals were a family affair with kids invited. I'm sure I saw lots of dead bodies - it being a big family that mainly died young, and with that fascination kids have for sneaking peeks at grisly sights. But I only remember one.
I was actually just thinking about this on the weekend and knew that theoretically it could be one explanation for the dead people. But no, I've never been to an open casket funeral. I wish it could be explained away that simply.
Posted by littleone on November 1, 2004, at 1:32:32
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people* » littleone, posted by Larry Hoover on October 31, 2004, at 22:33:09
Thanks for your reply Larry. I've always found your posts to be enlightening and wonderful brain fodder.
> I know they're just going about their waspy business
What would a waspy business look like? Stings-R-Us? Maybe they could include some sort of home protection service? :)
> I believe what I remember.
I guess this is the problem I have with the whole false memory thing. I'm kind of hoping that if it *feels* right, you can believe it. Is that why you believe yourself, because inside, you just know it is right? Gut instinct.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 1, 2004, at 8:14:06
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people* » Larry Hoover, posted by littleone on November 1, 2004, at 1:32:32
> Thanks for your reply Larry. I've always found your posts to be enlightening and wonderful brain fodder.
I make you think, huh? You ever wondered what goes on inside my own cranial vault? Eh? Yoiks!
> > I know they're just going about their waspy business
>
> What would a waspy business look like? Stings-R-Us?Cute. Actually, wasps are omnivorous like us. They eat fruit, dead critters of all sorts.... Wasps at a picnic might be as drawn to the fruit or soda as they are to the hotddog and relish.
> Maybe they could include some sort of home protection service? :)
So long as they stayed outside, and respected doorways, I'm ok with that. I think the little devils are free-lancers, though.
> > I believe what I remember.
>
> I guess this is the problem I have with the whole false memory thing. I'm kind of hoping that if it *feels* right, you can believe it.There's an issue of logic, here. The feeling right part is a necessary part of belief. It is, however, insufficient to prove believability. There has to be more than just the feeling.
> Is that why you believe yourself, because inside, you just know it is right? Gut instinct.
It's more than gut instinct. I have distinct and separate memories of my mom's facial expression, for example. I have memories of her checking to see that there wasn't visible evidence of the abuse. I just don't remember the abuse itself. That has a generic memory component. It all blends together, one composite. I know what went on between the facial expression and the check for visible damage, but without the same distinctiveness of detail. In between, I went somewhere. I felt the pain, but I was overwhelmed.
The wasp story was telling me something else other than why I fear wasps. It demonstrated my ability to dissociate. I remember running and running and running and running. I remember it now, but that memory was not available to me, for 40 years. Yet, it came back to me in complete richness of detail. But for my exact age (memories aren't time-stamped), I know all the details.
I would suggest that sharpness of detail might be another necessary component for belief. Nonetheless, I described my "generic" blurry recall of the physical abuse itself. The sharpness of recall of the immediate pre-dissociative memories (facial expression, that verbal cue, tone of voice), and the post-dissociative (the physical examination, with dismissive comments (it was for my own good, etc.)), make it all very credible to me. I believe it.
Lar
Posted by sunny10 on November 1, 2004, at 11:25:10
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people* » littleone, posted by Larry Hoover on November 1, 2004, at 8:14:06
Hey, Larry,
Forget the "looking for signs of the abuse to hide it"- the pyschological abuse can NEVER be found.
I tried to kill myself to get away from it- and to spare my 3 yr old from the physical stuff my ex-husb was inflicting on our son when I stopped responding to the emotional abuse... I had run out of tears. I thought that if I was gone, my ex wouldn't have any more reasons to get mad and my son wouldn't be thrown against the wall into his crib/youth bed...yes, I was completely irrational by then.
When I came out of the hospital, the courts GAVE my son to my ex-husb because they could not "see" pyschological/emotional abuse.
And now my son will grow up either a victim of it, or learn it and do it to someone else... isn't that the way they say these things go??
I was a victim.... my mother told me what form of birth control failed and didn't prevent my conception.... my godmother told me that she had to physically remove my mother from the abortion clinic so that I would be born....my mother barely acknowledged my existence at all 24/7. I "learned" to find someone like my mother and "turn it around- make them love me this time".... and wound up with my ex...
And now my poor son is in this vicious cycle. I wish I had been diagnosed earlier- had gotten some help earlier. I put an innocent child into this hell.
Sorry- got a little (!?) digression going on...just wanted to mention that not all abuse leaves scars that people can see.
-sunny10
Posted by Dinah on November 1, 2004, at 11:29:32
In reply to Fading away » Dinah, posted by littleone on October 31, 2004, at 22:44:59
Dissociation makes things blurry. And it may make things less available to independent recall. So do my "forgetting sleeps". But if I were reminded of what happened when I was dissociating, I'd probably remember *that* it happened, but not the particulars. Similar to my reaction to shock, I suppose.
Conversely, if someone prods me to remember something that didn't happen, I don't remember it. I guess you could make a case that it really did happen and I don't remember, but given context, I think it's more likely that the other person had me confused with someone else.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 1, 2004, at 12:13:56
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, * » Larry Hoover, posted by sunny10 on November 1, 2004, at 11:25:10
> Hey, Larry,
>
> Forget the "looking for signs of the abuse to hide it"- the pyschological abuse can NEVER be found.
>
> I tried to kill myself to get away from it- and to spare my 3 yr old from the physical stuff my ex-husb was inflicting on our son when I stopped responding to the emotional abuse... I had run out of tears. I thought that if I was gone, my ex wouldn't have any more reasons to get mad and my son wouldn't be thrown against the wall into his crib/youth bed...yes, I was completely irrational by then.
>
> When I came out of the hospital, the courts GAVE my son to my ex-husb because they could not "see" pyschological/emotional abuse.
>
> And now my son will grow up either a victim of it, or learn it and do it to someone else... isn't that the way they say these things go??
>
> I was a victim.... my mother told me what form of birth control failed and didn't prevent my conception.... my godmother told me that she had to physically remove my mother from the abortion clinic so that I would be born....my mother barely acknowledged my existence at all 24/7. I "learned" to find someone like my mother and "turn it around- make them love me this time".... and wound up with my ex...
>
> And now my poor son is in this vicious cycle. I wish I had been diagnosed earlier- had gotten some help earlier. I put an innocent child into this hell.
>
> Sorry- got a little (!?) digression going on...just wanted to mention that not all abuse leaves scars that people can see.
>
> -sunny10Oh, I know. I'm sorry you hurt so much.
When I was in a support group for victims of abuse, two things struck me hardest. One, the incredible variability in the nature of the abuse. Two, the similarities in what it did to us.
I like the way John Bradshaw put it. I think I'll be pretty accurate if I call this a quotation: "All abuse is emotional abuse."
Thank you for sharing your experience with us.
Lar
Posted by gardenergirl on November 1, 2004, at 12:38:40
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people* » littleone, posted by Larry Hoover on November 1, 2004, at 8:14:06
>
> I would suggest that sharpness of detail might be another necessary component for belief.Hi Lar,
You might be on to something here. I know the family "lore" that I fell down the basement stairs the day we moved into our new house when I was almost 2. Clearly that's very young to remember anything. But I have a very strong and sharp visual image of walking (or perhaps toddling) down the hallway which was covered with newspapers to protect the new wood floors. That's where I fell. I can see those newspapers so clearly. I don't remember anything else about the house until probably age 4. But I will never forget those newspapers.gg
Posted by sunny10 on November 1, 2004, at 12:52:28
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, * » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on November 1, 2004, at 12:13:56
Wow, I am soooooooooooo sorry for unloading on you like that. It was totally uncalled for.
I'm dealing with something "new" on the relationship board; I'm afraid I let my feelings run away from me on this board.
Boy, do I appreciate you being able to deflect that and bring this back on subject...!
That being said, what I had MEANT to actually reply was this... I "know" these things about my mother because they were told to me. The fact that I can't "recall with detail" the "memories of being neglected" is BECAUSE nothing happened. Nothing GOOD I mean- and with emotional neglect, it is 24/7, there are no "moments" that you can "recall" for therapuetic purposes.
Does that mean that the emotional neglect didn't occur- I mean, because there are no detailed memories??
On a positive note, I am trying your suggestion of the Sam-e and omega 3's... I was listening; got the blister foil, enteric coated Sam-e and the enteric coated Omega 3's. And were you ever right about reading the labels on the Omega 3's for actual mgs ! The one I wound up with says 1000 mgs on the front, but the actual Omega 3 mgs is 600 ! But the 600 was better than 300 for the same price...
I think they're actually kicking in for today... I wish they had done so BEFORE I went off on the "screaming me-me's" on you earlier.
Again, my sincerest apologies...
-sunny10
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 1, 2004, at 13:52:40
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, * » Larry Hoover, posted by sunny10 on November 1, 2004, at 12:52:28
> Wow, I am soooooooooooo sorry for unloading on you like that. It was totally uncalled for.
There's nothing at all to apologize for. I was listening. You got triggered. Hopefully, some insight comes from your experience, of vocalizing your history.
> I'm dealing with something "new" on the relationship board; I'm afraid I let my feelings run away from me on this board.
Doesn't bother me.
> Boy, do I appreciate you being able to deflect that and bring this back on subject...!I am good at that. ;-)
> That being said, what I had MEANT to actually reply was this... I "know" these things about my mother because they were told to me. The fact that I can't "recall with detail" the "memories of being neglected" is BECAUSE nothing happened. Nothing GOOD I mean- and with emotional neglect, it is 24/7, there are no "moments" that you can "recall" for therapuetic purposes.Neglect is a special kind of abuse. Maybe you can think of times when you needed comforting, but didn't get it? There's a technique called reparenting. When you recall those moments of having not received the comfort you needed, you can picture yourself hugging the scared child within you. It may sound hokey, but it works for me.
I'm 47 years old, and I do not recall a single instance where my mother hugged me. Not ever, and to this day. Now, that is not proof that it never happened, but I can state with 100% assurance that it did not happen enough.
> Does that mean that the emotional neglect didn't occur- I mean, because there are no detailed memories??If you can remember being left to deal with your internal state, without external support, then that is your memory to work with.
> On a positive note, I am trying your suggestion of the Sam-e and omega 3's... I was listening; got the blister foil, enteric coated Sam-e and the enteric coated Omega 3's. And were you ever right about reading the labels on the Omega 3's for actual mgs ! The one I wound up with says 1000 mgs on the front, but the actual Omega 3 mgs is 600 ! But the 600 was better than 300 for the same price...Labels are there for a reason, eh?
> I think they're actually kicking in for today... I wish they had done so BEFORE I went off on the "screaming me-me's" on you earlier.Please, rest assured, I was not upset by your post. I was upset *for* you.
> Again, my sincerest apologies...
>
> -sunny10Already water under the bridge.
Lar
Posted by sunny10 on November 1, 2004, at 14:12:58
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, * » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on November 1, 2004, at 13:52:40
I'm sure you know that I'm rather new here... I've been doing a bunch of reading on the various boards, but I haven't really heard anyone who had experiences as simmilar to mine before I read your last post.
We do a bit of talking "around" a subject here, without really opening up until either triggered or asked, I've noticed.
I appreciate you opening up with me to show me that you do, in fact, understand.
I notice that in your posts you are extremely knowledgeable. I am often accused of "thinking too much"; I think I use it as a mechanism- sort of a dissassociation from feeling. Do people accuse you of these things, too? And if so, does that help or hinder your therapy?
I find myself ambivalent- there are good things and bad things about knowing these things about myself. Still haven't figured out whether it is a good thing or a bad thing that I use the "smarts" as a tool to avoid more chances of getting hurt.
Any thoughts on that? As I am 37, your extra 10 yrs experience can only add to my own theories!
And, as advice should be, only used if it feels right to me. I know, I know, no two people are alike. But sharing in this "safe" haven seems to be cathartic in its way...Thanks again,
sunny10
Posted by sunny10 on November 1, 2004, at 14:29:56
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people* » Larry Hoover, posted by gardenergirl on November 1, 2004, at 12:38:40
Gosh, it's so strange to hear you mention the stairway.
I have a cast from my right arm; broken when I was six months old. My mother (who was divorced from my sister's and brother's father and engaged to mine)got pregnant "out of wedlock". After my godmother forced her to leave the abortion clinic, she still hid her pregnancy from her parents and I didn't have the baby furniture from my siblings until I was six months old (they were stored in her mother's attic). I slept in a dresser drawer until then.
From "family lore" the "broken arm story" was that I had been so afraid of the new furniture that I smashed my arm down on the side of the crib repeatedly until I broke my own arm.
No one will ever know the whole, true story- I was six months old ! I would never be able to pull the memory of how that arm got broken! Even if hypnotherapy worked, I was incapable of coherent speech at the time, so an age regression therapy couldn't work, logically.
Well, gee, I always knew that I was emotionally neglected by my only parent until my mom re-married when I was 9. Then, when I got a new one-a stepfather who legally adopted my siblings and I, my father physically abused me. And when I grew up, I married an emotional abuser. And it appears I have a live-in SO who "dabbles in cocaine"-which frightens the h*ll out of me. Now I am learning that I was probably physically abused by my mother when I was only six months old???
Someone suggested that I read the book, Codependent No More, on the relationahip board. Does that mean I am dependent on abuse? G*d, how frightful is THAT thought?
Is there any escape from this through therapy?
Does anyone know anyone who has actually re-learned how NOT to wind up with these people??
Good grief, I thought I knew what was wrong with me before... more fodder to pay the T for, I guess....
(huge sigh)
-sunny10
Posted by littleone on November 1, 2004, at 20:07:48
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people*, posted by gardenergirl on October 31, 2004, at 16:44:31
Posted by pegasus on November 2, 2004, at 13:38:50
In reply to Re: Fading away » littleone, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2004, at 11:29:32
It's interesting, but I have both completely missing memories that other family members assure me really happened, and missing memories that are more like fuzzy times where I don't have the details anymore but I'm sure things happened.
For an example of the latter, I had a bad year where certain things definitely happened, but I don't remember them. I saw a psychiatrist during that year, but I don't remember anything about seeing her except waiting for the bus to go to my appointments, and having a prescription from her rejected at the pharmacy because my insurance wouldn't cover it. Everything in between is gone. I somehow know that it was a woman that I saw, but I have no recollection of her at all. I couldn't tell you whether I saw her for 6 sessions (seems likely because of the insurance) or for the whole year.
My family tells me that when we were kids my sister hit me on the forehead with a book which caused a big gash requiring stitches. I have no recollection of this, although I was old enough that I *should* remember going to the emergency room and everything. But no. If you asked me independently, I'd say it never happened. But I do have the scar.
Memories are slippery beasts, indeed.
pegasus
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2004, at 14:11:10
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, * » Larry Hoover, posted by sunny10 on November 1, 2004, at 14:12:58
> I'm sure you know that I'm rather new here... I've been doing a bunch of reading on the various boards, but I haven't really heard anyone who had experiences as simmilar to mine before I read your last post.
I didn't know you were new. I have trouble keeping people/identities straight.
> We do a bit of talking "around" a subject here, without really opening up until either triggered or asked, I've noticed.
I'd hate to generalize like that. Sometimes I wonder if anyone is even interested, but that's probably got a lot more to do with what's going on inside of me than anything else.
> I appreciate you opening up with me to show me that you do, in fact, understand.I'm glad you felt validated.
> I notice that in your posts you are extremely knowledgeable. I am often accused of "thinking too much"; I think I use it as a mechanism- sort of a dissassociation from feeling.There is a possibility of using thinking to remain superficial or to create detachment. But that's not necessarily the case.
> Do people accuse you of these things, too?
Accuse? Wow, that's a strong word. I think a lot, but I feel deeply. I don't see them as being mutually exclusive processes.
> And if so, does that help or hinder your therapy?
The thinking part of me helps me to find the best words. The feeling part of my is facilitated when I find the best words.
> I find myself ambivalent- there are good things and bad things about knowing these things about myself. Still haven't figured out whether it is a good thing or a bad thing that I use the "smarts" as a tool to avoid more chances of getting hurt.
Coping strategies are not simply adaptive or maladaptive. They have benefits and costs, and those are dependent on the situation. It may be that you're sensing that becoming superficial via cognitive processes is less adaptive for you, as time goes on?
> Any thoughts on that? As I am 37, your extra 10 yrs experience can only add to my own theories!Keeping from feeling is a way of reducing the possibility of being hurt, but I'd rather feel life to the fullness of my capability.
> And, as advice should be, only used if it feels right to me. I know, I know, no two people are alike. But sharing in this "safe" haven seems to be cathartic in its way...
>
> Thanks again,
> sunny10I hope you do share. Dialogue is a two-way street. I'm sure you have much to teach others.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2004, at 14:22:06
In reply to Re: Fading away, posted by pegasus on November 2, 2004, at 13:38:50
> It's interesting, but I have both completely missing memories that other family members assure me really happened, and missing memories that are more like fuzzy times where I don't have the details anymore but I'm sure things happened.
>
> For an example of the latter, I had a bad year where certain things definitely happened, but I don't remember them. I saw a psychiatrist during that year, but I don't remember anything about seeing her except waiting for the bus to go to my appointments, and having a prescription from her rejected at the pharmacy because my insurance wouldn't cover it. Everything in between is gone. I somehow know that it was a woman that I saw, but I have no recollection of her at all. I couldn't tell you whether I saw her for 6 sessions (seems likely because of the insurance) or for the whole year.
>
> My family tells me that when we were kids my sister hit me on the forehead with a book which caused a big gash requiring stitches. I have no recollection of this, although I was old enough that I *should* remember going to the emergency room and everything. But no. If you asked me independently, I'd say it never happened. But I do have the scar.
>
> Memories are slippery beasts, indeed.
>
> pegasusOh, ain't that the truth.
There's another factor to consider, too. Some memories are state-dependent. In other words, they're locked away until you find yourself in a similar state of mind. A definition: "Learning that occurs in one state or affect or consciousness is best recalled in that same state of affect or consciousness."
State-dependent learning/recall may have saved my life.
I learned about firearms in a military organization, and became a marksman. I owned a rifle, and I stored it with a trigger lock, the magazine and cartridges stored separately, also under lock and key.
Three separate occasions, I was suicidal, and went for the rifle. I couldn't find the trigger-lock key, or the bullets. I couldn't carry out my plan. Yet, when my mood recovered, I could go straight to all the bits without the slightest hesitation. I only had a problem finding them when I was suicidal.
I finally told my psychiatrist about these episodes, and he convinced me to have the firearm destroyed. The police came to my home, to take the rifle et al away, and I couldn't find the bits. I was in that state again. I had to take the rest in to the police station a few weeks later.
I'm glad memory isn't like a tape recorder or a hard drive.
Lar
Posted by sunny10 on November 4, 2004, at 15:33:04
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, * » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2004, at 14:11:10
Most of the time I feel that there are no words as powerful as what I am feeling, therefore I struggle to find "suitable words".
But, yes, I do not see how I can remain ME while talking out my butt, just because I'm "coping".
Coping does not alleviate the pain I feel inside- it simply gets me to the point where other people don't stick me in a hospital!
I would rather believe in hypnosis! "Sunny10, you are a worthwhile person, not everything that happens in your life will turn out badly," et cetera, might be helpful if planted deep in my subconscience... All of the cognitive therapies are just that, cognitive. I think I need something a little deeper. I'm not stupid, I'm depressed !
-sunny10
Posted by gardenergirl on November 4, 2004, at 23:05:35
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people* » gardenergirl, posted by sunny10 on November 1, 2004, at 14:29:56
Wow, sounds like you do have a lot of fodder for therapy. But then I guess we all do...some is just more intense perhaps than others.
About co-dependency...I have some experience with that, as I grew up with an alcoholic father. My brother is also an alcoholic, and I would say my mom is quite co-dependent on him. In their case, (and you could never convince them of it), Mom takes care of my bro every time he loses a job or gets evicted or whatever. She pays his rent, does his laundry, provides a place for him to return time and time again. It drives me and my sister nuts as we are so afraid that someday (ugh) when she is no longer here to take care of him, he will turn to us.
My brother is clearly dependent on my mom. He is 40 going on about 14. So why does my mom do this? My guess is that she gets important needs of her own met by having someone depend on her. She doesn't have much else in life besides work and dealing with my bro. Perhaps an overboard response to the empty nest syndrome? :)
So, are you dependent on abusers? No. But many if not most people who are abused DO get something out of the relationship. If you got nothing but abuse, clearly you wouldn't continue the relationship. In the case of a child, the child literally is dependent on the abuser. For adults, it's harder to pin down what needs are being met. But something is there.
Does this make sense?
Take care,
gg
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 5, 2004, at 7:32:05
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people* » sunny10, posted by gardenergirl on November 4, 2004, at 23:05:35
> So, are you dependent on abusers? No. But many if not most people who are abused DO get something out of the relationship. If you got nothing but abuse, clearly you wouldn't continue the relationship. In the case of a child, the child literally is dependent on the abuser. For adults, it's harder to pin down what needs are being met. But something is there.
>
> Does this make sense?
>
> Take care,
> ggIt's hard to know any more if my thoughts are original in the slightest, or if I've borrowed them all from others, but I think that there is a tendency to go to the familiar. All abusers share a common characteristic, conditional love. They want you to be a certain way (even if it's just to take the abuse and STFU). Unconsciously, and carried over from a child's perspective, you think that might be a reasonable deal. To get love, I've got to be a certain way.
Another unfortunate aspect of this acceptance of conditional love is that it can make you reject someone who does not require this quid pro quo. A person capable of unconditional love may seem to be distant, even rejecting, if you don't know what healthy boundaries are. He's respecting, and you feel he's rejecting. Even a negative reaction is better than nothing.
When you're getting to know someone, I think you are assessing the kind of subtext, the unspoken part of how things work. I think another aspect of co-dependency can also get in the way at that point. If you've got unfinished business (often with a parent), something you want to fix, to do over, you may seek out a partner that is similar enough that you get that 'do over'. A friend of mind calls that "reliving the drama".
Co-dependency is sometimes depicted as two overlapping circles. In the overlap area, you have a blurring together of identities, and with that, responsibilities. Without boundaries, it is possible for one individual to become responsible for the other person's acts or thoughts. That's not a healthy way for things to be, IMHO.
It takes a lot of effort to change the unconscious things we do without thinking. You first need to figure out "what's wrong with this picture", i.e. you need to know what needs changing, before you can develop ways to change it.
A lot of people get to that point and come to the realization that the work in changing those things is too much for them, without realizing that most of the work has already been done. The hardest part isn't changing things, it's in figuring out what it is that needs changing at all.
So, back to the example of you're getting to know someone, and you're starting to feel that tug of the heart.....It's time to figure out if what you're feeling is, "I know this way of being. I know how this works.", or, "....
I couldn't think of what to say for the alternative. I'm still a work in progress. I think I'm better at knowing what I don't want to have again, though. I've set up some boundaries, maybe not much more than lines in the sand, but at least I know to stay over here instead of going over there.
Boundaries only work if they help you to do things differently. "I won't be talked to like that." "I don't owe anyone an explanation." "My feelings are not subject to debate." "Nobody hits me, ever." And then, acting on your belief.
I guess that's my 2¢ for today.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 5, 2004, at 9:35:53
In reply to Re: co-dependency » gardenergirl, posted by Larry Hoover on November 5, 2004, at 7:32:05
>e's respecting, and you feel he's rejecting. Even a negative reaction is better than nothing.
>
For clarity, I meant the latter comment to represent "co-dependent think".
Posted by sunny10 on November 5, 2004, at 10:54:32
In reply to Re: co-dependency, posted by Larry Hoover on November 5, 2004, at 9:35:53
go ahead, Lar, use my name, too-- I think you've got it in one.
The whole unconditional love feeling "distant" sounds sooooooo familiar, I'm SHOCKED that I think I didn't recognize it when it happened. My SO hardly ever asks me how my day at work went and seems surprised when I ask about his. His response on last Friday was, "it's the end of the month- I'm a mechanic- how do you think my day was?" I didn't see that it's possible that he was thinking, "you know what I do for a living and every day is about the same- did you need me to recount my every action or do you want to recount your every action on a regular day?- how odd and unnecessary"...
Because my ex-husb wanted me to recount my entire day to maintain his "control"- I must have subconsciously been confused because my SO doesn't ask the same of me and I thought it was a sort of relationship ritual at the end of the day.
Or, was I originally correct and he IS just a tad distant... Jeez, now I'm confusing myself again..
-sunny10
Posted by sunny10 on November 5, 2004, at 11:01:50
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people* » sunny10, posted by gardenergirl on November 4, 2004, at 23:05:35
To be perfectly frank, I don't know whether I am coming or going right now.
As far as the co-dependency goes, I THINK I am forcing myself to make great strides AGAINST that kind of behavior. I THINK...
I am more concerned by the fact that I cannot seem to "think" and "feel" the same things. I am "doing the right things", but it is completely unnatural and I'm a tad concerned that because I am "acting" differently than I actually feel, what I actually AM is a fraud ! Could "we" really be if I don't even feel like "the real me"? Can cognitive therapy practice IRL ever truly work for this reason alone?
-sunny10
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 5, 2004, at 11:40:36
In reply to Re: co-dependency » Larry Hoover, posted by sunny10 on November 5, 2004, at 10:54:32
> go ahead, Lar, use my name, too-- I think you've got it in one.
>
> The whole unconditional love feeling "distant" sounds sooooooo familiar, I'm SHOCKED that I think I didn't recognize it when it happened. My SO hardly ever asks me how my day at work went and seems surprised when I ask about his. His response on last Friday was, "it's the end of the month- I'm a mechanic- how do you think my day was?" I didn't see that it's possible that he was thinking, "you know what I do for a living and every day is about the same- did you need me to recount my every action or do you want to recount your every action on a regular day?- how odd and unnecessary"...
>
> Because my ex-husb wanted me to recount my entire day to maintain his "control"- I must have subconsciously been confused because my SO doesn't ask the same of me and I thought it was a sort of relationship ritual at the end of the day.
>
> Or, was I originally correct and he IS just a tad distant... Jeez, now I'm confusing myself again..
>
> -sunny10I think your example with your SO isn't what I'm talking about.
A person respectful of boundaries knows when something isn't their business. Some people just choose not to ask another what's up. Not caring to find out at all is different than waiting until you're invited to talk about things.
Lar
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