![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 17 to 41 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 9, 2007, at 16:23:57
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T, posted by annierose on September 7, 2007, at 17:18:15
> You have gotten great responses and I agree with all of them. Sometimes t / clients are just not good fits. Othertimes, the t's approach just rubs you the wrong way ... it doesn't mean she is not professional, ethical, etc ... it's just not what you want out of this relationship right now.
Yeah, I don't know whether she is professional or ethical. I guess in my particular situation she hasn't been entirely herself and it has come across as unethical to me. But she definitely rubs me the wrong way.
> Having said all that, I do want to throw out something out there, sometimes your resistance is a red flag. It signals that this is an area that needs exploring. If she is a blank slate type of person, all this angst you are experiencing is coming from some experience inside of you that needs attention.
That's what my previous therapist (the one I liked) told me when I spoke to him about this. We only spoke for like 5 minutes, but he told me to give it a shot when I had almost decided to terminate it.
At some point my current T and I found that I was having the same issues with her as I had with my stepmother. But I doubt this has to do with a memory of my stepmother. The reality is that I simply can't tolerate someone who is supposed to be in a 'guidance' type of role, and who I sense to be lacking. How can I allow someone I sense to be unqualified and/or insecure, to guide me in any way? I sensed my stepmother to be fully insecure about me, and yet she was a guiding role to me. We ended up with life lasting problems.Now this therapist, who is supposed to "guide" me through recovery, I sense her to be insecure, lacking in character, sometimes dishonest, even unsure of what her therapy is like.
One time I told her I was confused about her therapy and wanted her to explain to me a little bit of how it worked or what she expected. Basically, she gave me a definition from psychology 101. "We will explore the issues that.. blah blah blah." I told her I was looking for a more specific answer, like: she would listen and not talk, or I would start the session and she would make a comment or two.. etc. I was confused about the fact that I barely knew her, and I was supposed to TRUST her all of a sudden. We hadn't even created a rapport, how did she expect me to suddenly confide everything in her?? I always sensed something was missing.. she had missed to do something very important to get me to trust her.. but apparently she didn't even realize this and she expected me to arrive the first day, sit down, and start trusting her just based on her role there. Well, NOOO.
I don't trust her. Either she does her job and creates some kind of intro that will make it easier for me to have a relationship with her, or I can't just meet her and make her job a piece of cake by creating the whole therapy myself just to PLEASE her, and then paying her for it.
> You mentioned that she is bringing her stuff into the therapy room. How so? Does she talk about her life and friends and family? Or are you projecting anger onto her reaction of saying little?
I have no idea what is happening. All I know is that she didn't do anything to make me trust her. I don't trust her, like her, and I feel she wants me to sit and talk and then pay her for it.
I don't know if I am projecting anger onto her reaction of saying little. All I know is that I feel like I'm there to please her. To do her job, and then pay her for it.
She seems afraid of talking, and she doesn't seem to know what to say either. She also seems EXTREMELY sensitive. She seems to take everything personally, so that is one of the thing she's bringing into the therapy. To the point that up to TODAY, I refrain myself up to 10 times per session from saying something. Like, the other day she mentioned she took her kids to school. I didn't know she had kids. Well, I didn't ask either, for fear that it might bother her that I might be intruding her life. I tend to restrain my talking a LOT in this therapy because I know she's easily annoyed and anything that might slightly touch more of her than it should, will annoy her. She has a very strong shell, that if I go beyond it by a fraction, will be a problem.So here I am, in therapy, doing an effort to make sure my comments are fully impersonal, never making a comment slightly conversational--and it doesn't feel as a therapy style, it feels more as making sure I keep the therapist happy and secure in her role. Like I said before to her: I am there to please her. So I am constantly changing my own versions of my thoughts to suit her sensitive personality and make sure nothing will annoy her even a little. It's such a pain because this is MY therapy, not HERS, and yet I am constantly worrying about her issues with sensitivity and annoyance.
So is there a red flag here? Maybe. But I am not sure if the problems here are mine, or the therapist's. She seems to have a whole bunch of issues of her own that seem to contaminate the therapy. In fact, I feel her issues make it IMPOSSIBLE for me to even start a therapy with her. If I have to constantly restrict myself in the way I say things, I am not doing anything for myself, but rather I am making sure the therapist is happy and I am ensuring her job satisfaction and also paying her for her services. This I'd call b*llshit therapy.
Posted by sunnydays on September 9, 2007, at 19:13:28
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » RealMe, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 9, 2007, at 14:23:14
I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing sarcasm in the ways your T responded. I hear a lot of frustration coming from you, which is absolutely understandable if you're not clicking with your T. Her last comment about therapy being very hard is something my T would say. I frequently say that I hate this or something, and he'll remind me that it is going to be hard to confront my feelings, but eventually I will move past it. Is there a bad experience you have had previously that you might be projecting onto your T here? You seem to be very sensitive to any indication of untrustworthiness on the part of your T, which many of us have. Is it possible this is a growth opportunity for you, a time for you to look at the possibility that your reactions may not have very much at all to do with her actual behavior and feelings, but more to do with your own sensitivities and insecurities? I'm absolutely not saying I'm correct, I'm just offering it as a thought. Because while it seems that your T and you don't click, I don't really see any problems with the statements she has made to you. It sounds like she is having human reactions to human reactions that you are having. T's aren't robots, so she wouldn't necessarily hide her feelings from you.
sunnydays
P.S. One other thing... my T would so tell me if he was angry. He would never be angry at me, but he tells me when my stories make him angry at other people in my life, or when he's proud of me or something. Bored? Not sure he gets bored with me :) although he yawned once last session and I freaked, but I don't think that was boredom.
Posted by sunnydays on September 9, 2007, at 19:19:06
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » annierose, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 9, 2007, at 16:23:57
One more question. What are your goals for therapy? I don't really get a sense that you have clear goals for it from your posts, although it's quite possible you do and just haven't been incorporating them into your posts. I think this anger sounds almost all-consuming in its intensity, which often indicates that the anger is out of proportion to whatever is going on. I understand you don't think she's qualified, but what if she is qualified and you are misperceiving her supposed insecurity because of your own issues? Again, she very well may be insecure, I have no way of knowing, these are just thoughts I have reading your posts.
sunnydays
Posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 10, 2007, at 0:05:24
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T, posted by Maria01 on September 7, 2007, at 18:44:11
> Sounds like a bad "fit" between you and your T. She sounds very traditional/analytic. Have you considered setting up a consult with a T who has a different approach.
I wish, but I'm at slide-fee scale clinic. My previous T (the one I really liked) left this clinic and has his own practice, and I cannot afford him. It's a shame because he told me he could make a discount, but even with the discount I'd be paying more than 3 times what I pay here, plus I'd have to see a psychiatrist independently for 4 times what I pay at the clinic. Not a possibility for me at the moment.
> At any rate, if you do not feel safe with your present T, that is reason enough to seek out another T. Regardless of a T's style/approach, the therapy won't be successul/beneficial unless there is a good "fit" between therapist and client. I do hope things improve, or that you are able to find someone more compatible.
Thanks a lot. I agree that I need to feel safe and comfortable. But I wonder why others (such as my T) claim that I should remain in THAT therapy, despite knowing my feelings about it.
All my T said about my comments was "Therapy is very hard work" even though the problem I discussed with her were not related to the therapy!! I explained that the reasons I was unhappy had nothing to do with therapy, but with the fact that I did not trust her and I felt the only reason I was there was to please her. It was clear that my problems were with HER, not with the therapy itself. In fact, I could not do therapy at all because I did not trust her.
Posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 10, 2007, at 2:19:23
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T, posted by Wittgenstein on September 8, 2007, at 4:20:49
> I agree with the other posters. Perhaps your therapist has her own problems, perhaps these are problems you are projecting onto the 'blank slate' - either way, her approach sounds like that of a fairly traditional analyst and this isn't the right approach for everyone.
Is it really possible for me to be confused enough to project my problems onto the therapist without realizing they are in fact MY problems and not the therapist's? And if that were the case, would my projections happen with every therapist, or only with a specific one that practices blank slate?
And if it happened only with a specific one, what does that say about that only one? She just happened to be the lucky one, or she might have some issues of her own?
Otherwise I imagine I'd be projecting my problems onto every other therapist. I have personally seen my therapist act annoyed and overly sensitive. What you (and others) are saying is that such annoyance and sensitivity might not exist, and might be my own projections on her, and that I simply am 'imagining' that she is annoyed and insecure, when in fact, she isn't?
And in fact, I might be the one who is annoyed and insecure? I'm not entirely sure what you mean by projection, so that's the closest I can get given my knowledge and imagination. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> You asked whether therapists practice their own type of therapy or whether there are general types of therapy.
I know there are many approaches, but I was asking if my therapist, given my description of her behavior, was doing a specific type of therapy.
When I myself asked her how her therapy worked, she gave me a definition that came from psych 101! Something completely abstract that could mean ANYTHING. She said something along the lines of "Explore the issues of your life.. blah blah blah.." Yeah, that could mean anything and that's something EVERYONE knows about therapy.
If she had a school or an approach, I'm sure she would have mentioned it, but apparently she doesn't. So I told her I was looking for a more specific answer, and there she got stuck. WHY????
Why can't this therapist tell me what her method is? Could it be that her method is: "I sit, you talk, I say nothing, you pay, I earn." That seems like the most accurate description of her method to me. I even tried to help her by giving her an example. The "example" I gave her was what I had observed in her so far, so that's what I told her:
"Basically I will talk about my life, or my problems, and you will make a comment once in a while, such as the comments you've made so far, eg: 'yes, you had a tough childhood', 'your father was mean', etc.. That's the kind of answer I am looking for--which is what I've seen so far."
> I can see how this would be a real problem for some people - as it could feel like cold behaviour.I wouldn't mind this approach, if the therapist were able to actually DO something for me and I could see the benefit, and if he were able to actually make me comfortable. There's all types of approaches, and if they show results, I'd take them any day. It is when I have a real sense that I'm wasting my time and feel that I am getting no benefit, that I start to get incredibly frustrated. Just as frustrated as I am now.
>Also, if I ask him a question, he will always offer a thoughtful answer - he doesn't just dismiss me. I wouldn't like it at all if he would say "so what if I am angry?" (actually that would destroy me) - a therapeutic relationship requires trust and honesty, so of course it matters deeply if the client senses hostility from their therapist whether that hostility is real or not, and I feel regardless of their approach the therapist should explore that openly with their client.
Exactly my point. I'm glad you can see it. Everyone else seems to see my therapist's behavior as perfectly acceptable, and just as a bad fit. But nobody seems to realize that it takes honesty to build a relationship, and that I asked her whether she was angry, and that she denied it, even though she WAS in fact angry (she admitted it later) and even though such question was a HUGE block in the way of building our relationship--a relationship I expected should be based on HONESTY.
Yet, my therapist was annoyed that I even asked the question!! And out of frustration and annoyance, she asked me: "What is the point of knowing if I'm annoyed? What is the relevance of knowing this??"
Do you realize how little she thinks her behavior will impact her patient? So little that she is capable of asking me what is the relevance of her behavior towards me? Isn't it clear she thinks she's free to do as she pleases, and I'm supposed to like her and trust her despite her behavior towards me, and despite the fact that she won't even be honest to me, and will dismiss me when I ask about something I need to know? And people don't think this is being unqualified.. it's just "an approach."Don't people see how wrong this is?? I know you see my point, Witt, but nobody else here does. They all think it's just a bad fit, but not unethical in any way, while I think her dismissing my request is a way of telling me that her behavior is not to be questioned and that I should deal with it whether I like it or not, and that I must trust her with my life regardless. What kind of therapist does this? How can she think I will trust her when she can't even build an honest relationship with me, and when she is so selfish that she will behave as she pleases without any regard to my feelings, and even ask what do I care about her behavior?
And because she asked me such a question "what is the relevance of knowing whether I am annoyed?"
I was forced to tell her the truth. A truth that offended her (for obvious reasons): I said that I did not feel comfortable talking to her because I didn't even know why she was annoyed, and that I could not trust someone who was being dishonest to me and telling me she was not annoyed, even though it was pretty evident that she *was* annoyed.She was offended by this and claimed I was "hostile." I was simply answering HER question honestly. It DID matter if she was annoyed. And it did matter if she lied about it. And it *is* true that I could not trust her knowing she was not being honest. Her response? "You are hostile" That's how my honesty is taken. As hostility. What did she expect? She expected me to lie? Either that, or she expected me to not question her behavior.
On the fourth session, she CLOSED the discussion by coming to the therapy FURIOUS, sarcastic, blushing, and more dishonest than ever.
Ever since that day, I don't dare say I'm unhappy again because I'm afraid of triggering her anger again. I also never ask anything that I'm not sure might bother her. That's what I got for being fully honest. I got a full session of anger and sarcasm with lies (lies as in: She starts the session claiming she doesn't remember what we spoke about in our last 3 sessions, using a sarcastic tone, and later she furiously says "OF COURSE I REMEMBER WHAT WE SPOKE ABOUT") And I can't say anything because she's angry and I'm afraid of making her angrier.
Could that be just her "approach" which could benefit other patients? This seems to be the consensus on this board. Maybe other patients would be ok with this and not need honesty and wouldn't mind if she seems annoyed one day, or several times.. I guess I seem to be rare in needing a fully open and honest relationship.
> The fact you have gone several months and feel so negative about the relationship you have with your T is a clear sign that things aren't right - you need to click with your therapist and it doesn't sound like this has happened. It's interesting that your therapist is not questioning the lack of a click - surely she also senses your negative transference - I would question her why she doesn't offer reassurance or respond to this - why the lack of a click doesn't worry her as clearly it has created a feeling of stalemate.
Exactly. I wish she worried, but in the back of my mind, I just think she might have ulterior motives. Personal needs related to her work. I'm not certain, though. But you make a great point there. She SHOULD be concerned, and she clearly isn't. All she said to make me stay in her therapy is: Therapy is VERY HARD. It will be VERY HARD. But she doesn't realize that what is hard is to talk to and deal with HER. Not to deal with my issues. The problems have NOT been related to my past and my current life problems, but with our relationship. She's trying to confuse me on that matter by saying that THERAPY, the therapeutic process, is very hard. I haven't dealt with anything. I narrated a few things, she made a couple of comments and we moved on. How hard is that? Piece of cake. Especially because she doesn't challenge me in any way, or explores further. She changes the topic (probably because she doesn't know what else to do.)
> Finally, you say you found a great therapist before with whom you clicked - which approach did he have - could you still find out? Could he recommend you someone who takes your insurance/whom you can afford? Or perhaps he offers a sliding scale? Is gender a significant factor here perhaps - some people prefer male over female or vice versa. I chose a male therapist as I would have big problems trusting a female T due to my past.
No, he used to be in the clinic where I am, but left and has his own practice. He did offer me a discount, but it isn't nearly as affordable as the clinic where I am currently--which also offers psychiatric care at sliding fee scale. So I'd be paying 3-5 times more if I were to see him, unfortunately. I have no clue about his therapeutic approach, but he was simply fully engaged in the therapy from day 1, seemed passionate about learning about my life, and very interested in making connections about my behavior and my reactions. He made me excited about therapy because of how interested he seemed--and you can't transmit interest if you barely talk.
> Good luck and hope you find a good therapist and the right therapy for you.
>
> WittiThanks a lot. Your post was great, very thoughtful and informative. I appreciate it.
GI78
Posted by Racer on September 10, 2007, at 2:54:00
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » Wittgenstein, posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 10, 2007, at 2:19:23
It's way past my bedtime, but I wanted to give a very quick answer to some of your post. Again, these are quick reactions, and I'm tired enough they may not make a huge amount of sense to anyone except me...
> >
>
> Is it really possible for me to be confused enough to project my problems onto the therapist without realizing they are in fact MY problems and not the therapist's? And if that were the case, would my projections happen with every therapist, or only with a specific one that practices blank slate?Answer: yes, it's possible to project without realizing you're doing it -- in fact, that's pretty much the definition of this kind of projection. If you knew you were doing it, you probably wouldn't be doing it.
No, it wouldn't necessarily happen with every therapist. You've already mentioned in another post that you've got some transference going on with this therapist -- the part about not respecting her the way you didn't respect your stepmother? It's possible that there's something about this woman which is recreating some aspect of your relationship with your stepmother, and that that's what's causing the problems.
>
> No, he used to be in the clinic where I am, but left and has his own practice. I have no clue about his therapeutic approach, but he was simply fully engaged in the therapy from day 1, seemed passionate about learning about my life, and very interested in making connections about my behavior and my reactions. He made me excited about therapy because of how interested he seemed--and you can't transmit interest if you barely talk.Honestly, I was going to ask you about this based on other posts -- do you think it's a question of gender for you? I don't think I could see a man -- although I suspect I'll have to see a man eventually, to try to work out my issues with men -- but it sounds as though maybe it's harder for you to work with a woman? Then again, considering the transference going on now, I'd say it might be a good idea for you to see a woman therapist at some point. This may not be the ideal time, but it sounds as though there's a pretty rich vein to be mined there.
Can this agency transfer you to another therapist? Sometimes that's what it takes. And, sometimes they can't do that.
As far as this therapist goes, some of what you wrote sounds to me as though she may have a good deal going for her. I know it's probably very hard to believe that, but I saw a few things that jumped out at me. I'll try to get here tomorrow, when I have some more time, and try to explain them.
Good luck, and I hope things work out for you.
Posted by Wittgenstein on September 10, 2007, at 4:03:58
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » Wittgenstein, posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 10, 2007, at 2:19:23
GI,
I would suggest you do what you can to find a new T and work through all these feelings about the experience you have had with your current T. It's clear this has had a huge effect on you and by working through this with a caring and open therapist could help you a great deal in many ways.
When looking for a therapist, you should go prepared - ask them where they trained, what school of therapy they offer, how they work with the client (i.e. are they interactive and relationship-focused) and test them out - see how you feel. Many offer a free first session. There needs to be a click in therapy - you are working closely with this person and how can anyone expect you to trust her and be open with very personal things if you don't feel comfortable and safe with her. That's a given in my opinion.
The question of whether your T is unethical or not: I imagine people are hesitant to say yes or no because there hasn't been a violation in the traditional sense - i.e. overstepping her professional boundaries (sounds like she has been keeping too tight a set of boundaries). It does sound very much like her behaviour is untherapeutic. I wonder how her other patients find her - of course there's no way of knowing. I certainly wouldn't stick around with such a T - I would find it damaging and NOT therapeutic.
I had one nasty experience with a T - I fortunately only saw her twice. Her behaviour was verging on unethical but it was more a matter of unprofessionalism and obvious lack of experience - she just wasn't a good T.
Perhaps some clients find your T very different - perhaps the pair of you are just a bad match and somehow she is responding to you negatively (and don't see this as being your own fault, it isn't) - which is very unprofessional - a therapist should deal with their own feelings (countertransference) in a professional way and not let them contaminate the therapeutic relationship.
One thing though - you said she sometimes claims to have forgotten what you said in earlier sessions. I admit it is weird that she later angrily says that of course she remembered what you had said - sounds like she's just setting you up so that she can vent (not good!). However, my therapist often implies he has forgotten something when really he hasn't - I tend to write him mails when I can't bring myself to talk about something. It's getting to a point where I really need to be able to talk about these things and so he asks me to explain again what was in the mails. "Can you remind me what was in that mail you sent me?" Of course he knows what's in the mails but it's a way of making me go over it without avoiding an issue.
Analytic style therapy doesn't have to feel cold. When you enter therapy you will naturally bring with you assumptions (or patterns of thinking - projections/transferences) from your early relationships with key figures in your life. If you experienced hostility and anger from a primary care given (and I'm being very simplistic here), you may have a tendency to approach all relationships with the fear that the other person is harbouring hostile and negative thoughts toward you.
In normal everyday life you can deal with these fears by testing the relationship and gaging the response of the other person. In therapy, such fears can be intensified by the lack of a response from the therapist - far more is left open to question. If you have an analytic style therapist they will tend to hold back - let you project these fears onto them - this way your patterns of thinking and the underlying causes can be examined closely. A good therapist realises this, doesn't take a patient's fears or distrust to heart in this way but does his/her best to reassure their client that these fears are not the case and then to explore them therapeutically.
Hope this helps. I think the best thing is to get out. It's clear your T's not helping you - probably lack of experience. Why is it so important for you to validate that she has done something wrong? Surely by moving on and finding someone who is compassionate and effective is a clear message in itself. You need to work through these feelings with a new caring T.
Good luck,
Witti
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 10, 2007, at 4:58:10
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » girlnterrupted78, posted by Racer on September 10, 2007, at 2:54:00
> Answer: yes, it's possible to project without realizing you're doing it -- in fact, that's pretty much the definition of this kind of projection. If you knew you were doing it, you probably wouldn't be doing it.
I still don't understand it. I've been specific about the things that bother me about this T. I've said she gets easily annoyed when something goes beyond her comfort zone, to the point where I no longer feel free to talk and I'm constantly watching what I say, which makes it impossible for me to feel comfortable in therapy.
So what would be the projection here? Could it be that she is not annoyed and that it's just my imagination? Well, she in fact admitted to having been uneasy/uncomfortable when I tried to engage her, and she denied annoyance. But then again, her initial answer to that was "What is the point of knowing if I'm annoyed? What is the relevance?"
Do you realize what this means? A therapist telling a patient that whether she is annoyed or not is (almost) not of her business. She is basically telling me that her behavior in therapy is NOT to be questioned. This angered me. Am I projecting something there? Did I imagine the answer? This is one of the reasons I despise her--how can she tell a patient that her behavior is not to be questioned, even though therapy is supposed to be an open space for honesty and for being truthful? Isn't she flat-out defeating the purpose of therapy to save face? I think this is unprofessional, but everyone else claims I'm projecting my own (lack of professionalism?) on this poor T, and she's an innocent victim of my accusations? I would never answer like that. Ever. But it turns out I'm projecting? Interesting, because I explained my true feelings to her hundreds of times, as honestly as possible. And yet she came up furious after listening to them. I'm telling her the honest truth, and she responds with anger. Yet *I* am projecting??? Geez. I guess therapy might not be for me.
> No, it wouldn't necessarily happen with every therapist. You've already mentioned in another post that you've got some transference going on with this therapist -- the part about not respecting her the way you didn't respect your stepmother? It's possible that there's something about this woman which is recreating some aspect of your relationship with your stepmother, and that that's what's causing the problems.
You know, deep down, I always felt that I mentioned my stepmother to make this woman feel better about herself. In the back of my head, when I mentioned this, I felt: "This is going to make her feel so much better, and now she'll have a great explanation for herself." She doesn't remind me of my stepmother in the least, as my stepmother is a lot more talkative. However, there's one aspect in which they are very similar, and the reason I brought it up: Their extreme sensitivity, their inability to deal with problems honestly, and the fact that they ALWAYS felt attacked by me, even though I never meant to attack them.
My stepmother was outrageous in her sensitivity and her inability to DEAL with any problem. She was twice divorced, and she never had the guts to stand up for herself and face her marital problems. She always used other tactics like manipulation, hiding behind her family, etc.
NEVER in her life did she say "OK, today we'll have a talk because things are not working out." She'd simply become furious, would be abusive and then she'd stop speaking to me for days, and would never begin dialogue again. Since it was "my fault" I was expected to come out and apologize and make her happy again. She never took the conciliator role, and I was just a CHILD. Ever since I was about 5. How could a child have the emotional strength to deal with this? I didn't and it destroyed me.
How is she similar to this therapist? In that this T, IMO, lacks the ability to guide and her sensitivity far overwhelms her to the point of granting her incapable of being a guidance role for me. She rather pushes things under the rug, than have an open discussion on how things aren't working out. When I had the guts to bring up how our relationship was not working, she took it as an attack rather than as honesty on my part, and came FURIOUS days later to "fix" things her way.
The similarities I see is their inability to handle their sensitivity and their anger, their inability to have honest communication without going insane about it if anything negative is ever said about them, their pushing problems under the rug rather than discussing them, and their being manipulative.
> Honestly, I was going to ask you about this based on other posts -- do you think it's a question of gender for you?
Are you implying this based on a SINGLE woman I've spoken about? How so? Wouldn't it take more than one problematic female T to make such an assumption?
>I don't think I could see a man -- although I suspect I'll have to see a man eventually, to try to work out my issues with men -- but it sounds as though maybe it's harder for you to work with a woman? Then again, considering the transference going on now, I'd say it might be a good idea for you to see a woman therapist at some point. This may not be the ideal time, but it sounds as though there's a pretty rich vein to be mined there.
I saw a few women before, for short periods of time unfortunately ( at a previous clinic I used to go to, where there was outrageous rotation of Ts, and my Ts would always end up transferring after a couple of months.)
I never had these issues with ANY of those women. There was always something I liked about them, or even if they weren't the perfect fit, I don't think they angered me to this point. They at least seemed pretty secure in what they were doing, even if whatever it was, wasn't helping me. They didn't bring their anger or their personal issues into the therapy. And none of them made it so obvious that she couldn't care less about my inquiries regarding her feelings. My current T is bold and strict about her boundaries, and the minute something touches a boundary (like asking if she's annoyed--which she believes is NONE OF MY BUSINESS) will trigger annoyance and anger.
> Can this agency transfer you to another therapist? Sometimes that's what it takes. And, sometimes they can't do that.
I believe so. I haven't had the guts to tell my current T that I'm done with her. Not sure how to say it, either. But I will wait 1 or 2 sessions to do so.
> As far as this therapist goes, some of what you wrote sounds to me as though she may have a good deal going for her. I know it's probably very hard to believe that, but I saw a few things that jumped out at me. I'll try to get here tomorrow, when I have some more time, and try to explain them.
A good deal going for her? You mean something positive going on for her? I'm not sure what you mean, but I'd like to hear what you think of her based on what I've written.
Thanks so much for writing despite being past your bedtime. I know how hard that is, and I tend to screw up my bedtime all the time when something grabs my attention at the wrong time!
> Good luck, and I hope things work out for you.
Thank you again. Hope to hear from you.
GI78PS. Just curious: are you a man or a woman? Thx.
Posted by Racer on September 10, 2007, at 16:41:39
In reply to Re: Frustrated and unhappy with T » Racer, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 10, 2007, at 4:58:10
I'm sorry -- I didn't sleep well last night, and don't have the energy today to give you a full response. I really will try to finish my thoughts later, but it's more likely to be tomorrow.
> > Answer: yes, it's possible to project without realizing you're doing it -- in fact, that's pretty much the definition of this kind of projection. If you knew you were doing it, you probably wouldn't be doing it.
>
> I still don't understand it. I've been specific about the things that bother me about this T. I've said she gets easily annoyed when something goes beyond her comfort zone,
>
> So what would be the projection here? Could it be that she is not annoyed and that it's just my imagination?What I meant is that when you -- the generic 'you,' or one, rather than you specifically -- attribute emotional states or reactions to others, it's not necessarily their actual states you're responding to. Often, you're "projecting" something onto them.
Is it "just your imagination?" I don't think of it that way at all. You're applying one interpretation to her behavior, based on a lot of things in your history, experience, emotional reality, psychological make up, etc. None of that is imaginary -- it's all any of us has, and we all do it. What I am saying, though, is that it's not necessarily based on your T's actual experience.
Here's a link to the Wikipedia article about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
I don't know if you've taken any psych classes, but a lot of the words and phrases used in formal psychology are easy to misinterpret. "Defense mechanism" sounds remarkably like phrases used in common speech to imply someone is "being defensive." The two are very different, though. Being defensive can be a defense mechanism, but it's not a synonym. Here's a quote from another Wikipedia article about defense mechanisms:
"Are they pathological?Defence mechanisms are helpful and, if used in a proper manner, are healthy. However, if misused, the defence mechanisms may also be unhealthy"
(I just want to be clear here that I'm not saying that projection is "bad." There are a lot of examples where projection is the most adaptive reaction to a situation, where it's very positive.)
Since we can't see your T's face, or watch her body language, we can only go by our own experiences in responding to your posts. To me, based on my own background, psychological make up, etc, some of what you've described of your T's behavior has a very different interpretation than the one you attribute to it. Maybe you're right, maybe I'm right, maybe neither of us are anywhere near the mark. But often, the same events look very different to different people.
As for transference, that's complicated. There's a Wikipedia article on it, but again -- I suspect it's easy to interpret it as negative. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference
Transference in therapy is very often a very good thing. There is also negative transference in therapy, where we transfer negative aspects of a previous relationship to the therapist -- and from what you've written, it sounds as though you may be experiencing that with this therapist. It's not that your therapist reminds you of your stepmother -- only that you may have "transfered" certain aspects of the relationship into the therapy.
Overall, though, the only thing I've read here that raised any concerns on my part was something (can't remember what) that made me think she may not have a huge amount of experience. Doesn't mean she's bad, just means maybe she may not have a lot of experience. And I could be wrong. There was something you recounted that sounded to me as though she may have gotten a consult with another T -- which is actually a good thing, since it would mean she's trying to improve her interactions with you.
Anyway, I hope that makes what I was trying to say a little clearer. I'd also like to reiterate something I think may not have been clear earlier: I have had very bad experiences with Ts. I don't think it's possible to work with any T who walks into the room. Heck -- I've spent thousands of dollars over the years going to initial appointments with Ts looking for the right fit. You're not in a position to do that right now, I know, but it may be possible to transfer to another T within the agency. You may find a better fit. (Remember, though: it may actually be worse... I speak from experience.) All I'm trying to say in all of this is that it may not be that your T is a terrible person, it may just be that you're not a good fit together. Just trying to show another point of view, apparently rather clumsily.
I hope that's clearer.
Posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 11, 2007, at 13:40:27
In reply to Very partial response... » Girlnterrupted78, posted by Racer on September 10, 2007, at 16:41:39
> What I meant is that when you -- the generic 'you,' or one, rather than you specifically -- attribute emotional states or reactions to others, it's not necessarily their actual states you're responding to. Often, you're "projecting" something onto them.
Umm, I guess it can happen. Not sure where in my T this would apply. Most of the "guesses" I made about her turned out to be right, or very close to right.
When I was certain that she was annoyed, I had a loooong talk with her and told her just how I felt about her. I said it was important for me to know why she was annoyed because I felt uncomfortable in therapy if she was annoyed, and I could not trust her if she wasn't honest to me. It took all THAT (in addition to MY opening up fully about my feelings in therapy) to make her open up and speak. Consider that therapy is supposed to be an open space for honesty, yet the actual THERAPIST seems more comfortable pushing things under the rug (she claimed she was NOT annoyed 2 or 3 times, and then ended by saying: What is the point of knowing if I am annoyed or not? What is the relevance?)
So this is how "open" she is in therapy, and how honest she is to her patient. So I hope I'm not projecting anything here--it is HER who is not being honest with me, and I'm not making any interpretation of her behavior, I am stating the facts as they happened.
When she finally spoke, she didn't use the word 'annoyed.' (Who would? It doesn't sound too professional anyway!) She claimed she felt'uneasy' because she felt I was attacking her. I used to have this kind of "talk" with my previous T--one where we'd challenge each other to get to the root of a problem. So I guess I just tried the same approach with her; I was trying to engage her in the same way to get to the root of the problem, and she took it as an attack and reacted by giving me an angry look and using an angry tone of voice. Does this sound more like HER projection on me?
> Is it "just your imagination?" I don't think of it that way at all. You're applying one interpretation to her behavior, based on a lot of things in your history, experience, emotional reality, psychological make up, etc. None of that is imaginary -- it's all any of us has, and we all do it. What I am saying, though, is that it's not necessarily based on your T's actual experience.
Well, I'm sure you're right on that. But like I said before, I seek explanations from my T. She refused 2 or 3 times and kept asking what was the relevance of knowing if she was annoyed (read: What is the relevance of my behavior as a T in therapy!??)<-- that's her actual statement!
But eventually, when I was brutally honest with her--I told her I expected the same honesty. And at that point she admitted that she was 'afraid' of asking me certain things because she felt I'd be offended or I'd feel as if she were judging me. So I was right in that this T feels insecure around me. I sensed it.
> Defence mechanisms are helpful and, if used in a proper manner, are healthy. However, if misused, the defence mechanisms may also be unhealthy
Where would this apply? Who is using a defense mechanism? Myself? if so, how?
> Since we can't see your T's face, or watch her body language, we can only go by our own experiences in responding to your posts. To me, based on my own background, psychological make up, etc, some of what you've described of your T's behavior has a very different interpretation than the one you attribute to it.
So what would be your interpretation of my T's behavior based on your own psychological makeup? I'm sure I'd benefit from an outsider's opinion, so I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on this.
> Maybe you're right, maybe I'm right, maybe neither of us are anywhere near the mark. But often, the same events look very different to different people.
Yeah, that I know. You could find my T's method helpful, and the fact that she barely gives feedback helpful too, so you wouldn't need to figure out why she does what she does. For me, I find her method useless, so I began using a more challenging method. And then I began to sense her discomfort, and the fact that she could never answer my question (I asked her how her therapy worked, and she gave me a definition from a book) which angered me because the therapy wasn't working for me, and when I requested more info, I didn't get it, so I began to sense that she was unprepared and/or insecure about the whole thing, and later when she claimed she was afraid of making comments to me because she felt I'd be offended, then I realized that she both, doesn't know how her therapy works, and is afraid of commenting on my situation. In other words, I'm only paying for her sitting at her chair.
My interpretation is that she is insecure and unprepared. What would be YOUR interpretation of this? I could be projecting, but so far, her answers have cleared my doubts on the matter. Then after this "talk" she shows up furious and begins lying. What am I supposed to think of her behavior in general? How could this be projection, when I always have facts to back myself up?
> Transference in therapy is very often a very good thing. There is also negative transference in therapy, where we transfer negative aspects of a previous relationship to the therapist -- and from what you've written, it sounds as though you may be experiencing that with this therapist.
Well, the only thing I told this T is that I had a similar relationship with my stepmother. Some of their behaviors are very similar. And unfortunately, those behaviors are NEGATIVE. They both take things very personally, they both are way too sensitive, and they both are incapable of ever facing a problem with full honesty; Instead, they push things under the rug and pretend everything's perfect even though things obviously aren't. My stepmother would take EVERYTHING as an attack too, and never had the guts to have a talk about it. She guilt tripped me
It's not that your therapist reminds you of your stepmother -- only that you may have "transfered" certain aspects of the relationship into the therapy.
But the only thing she has in common with my stepmother is that she is overly sensitive and thinks I'm attacking her when I make a challenge related to the therapy. I didn't "bring this into the therapy" they just happen to be similar women--women who are too sensitive and take everything personally. My problems with T began due to her sensitivity--when I asked something challenging, she took it the wrong way--as an attack. Same with my stepmother--everything would be taken the wrong way and instead of TALKING about it, she'd act like a martyr and storm out of the room acting all hurt. I was a child. She never had a TALK with me about it. That would have resolved everything, but she'd rather act hurt and make me feel guilty, than figure out what I actually meant by my comment.
> Overall, though, the only thing I've read here that raised any concerns on my part was something (can't remember what) that made me think she may not have a huge amount of experience. Doesn't mean she's bad, just means maybe she may not have a lot of experience. And I could be wrong. There was something you recounted that sounded to me as though she may have gotten a consult with another T -- which is actually a good thing, since it would mean she's trying to improve her interactions with you.
You also mentioned that she has a good deal going on for her? What did you mean by that, Racer?
> Anyway, I hope that makes what I was trying to say a little clearer. I'd also like to reiterate something I think may not have been clear earlier: I have had very bad experiences with Ts. I don't think it's possible to work with any T who walks into the room. Heck -- I've spent thousands of dollars over the years going to initial appointments with Ts looking for the right fit. You're not in a position to do that right now, I know, but it may be possible to transfer to another T within the agency. You may find a better fit. (Remember, though: it may actually be worse... I speak from experience.) All I'm trying to say in all of this is that it may not be that your T is a terrible person, it may just be that you're not a good fit together. Just trying to show another point of view, apparently rather clumsily.Thanks. I know what you're saying. I never thought she was a 'terrible' person. I just think she has no clue what she's doing and she seems to resolve her problems with anger, and by never speaking about them, even though therapy is an OPEN space--do you realize how disappointed this makes me? And she brings those problems into the therapy--which is obviously a disadvantage for me, because I'm there to deal with MY issues, not with my T's issues.
>Thanks a lot for your response. If you could simply tell me what's your interpretation of my T (you said at some point she has a good deal going on for her.. and that you'd get back at me later..) I just would like to know what your interpretation of her behavior as I've described it would be from a third party--yourself!
Thank you again, I really appreciate your time :)
GI78
Posted by Honore on September 11, 2007, at 16:11:46
In reply to Re: Very partial response... » Racer, posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 11, 2007, at 13:40:27
It's hard to say, but my interpretation of your T's behavior is that she probably thought you understood her approach to therapy--which you may not have initially. She may have thought you were having trouble talking, but didn't want to start things, because what was important to you mattered and she didn't know what it was. She believed that if she was patient and waited, you would find those things, and it was better to give you the space.
At some point, she thought you might have worried that she was judging you, and wanted to be especially careful about saying things and asking you questions, because she was concerned that you might take her questions as hostile or accusatory. She may not have known why, and also thought that in time, you and she would come to understand why you tended to believe that you were being judged negatively when you weren't.
Then you were what seemed more angry at her, and she wasn't sure how to handle it, but tried to remain within her way of handling therapy, despite what possibly felt like your pressure, or even defensiveness (in that you might be feeling judged or uncomfortable with her silence). She could have felt confused and uncertain how to proceed in a constructive way. But you did seem very dissatisfied with her, and this made her also somewhat uncomfortable. Probably she wasn't sure what had caused it all, or whether you were ready or able to talk about what might have caused your feelings about her.
She didn't think her emotional state (like annoyance) was the issue, because but rather looked for some explanation in your emotional history and how you see the world. I'd tend to think she didn't feel annoyed, so it seemed that your feeling this was imported from some old relationship, pehraps that with your grandmother. Even if she wasn't like your grandmother in all ways, you could, in her mind, have been seeing her partially through the lens of your experience with your grandmother.
That, at least, would be my guess about what your T was thinking during the therapy. Of course I could be wrong, and it doesn't mean that her approach is at all good for you. There can be mismatches in style and temperament,which can lead to misunderstandings and miscommunications that are hurtful and baffling to both participants. I very much hope you find someone who radiates more warmth and responsiveness and who can engage you in as good a way as your prior T.
Honore
Posted by henrietta on September 11, 2007, at 19:51:47
In reply to Re: Very partial response... » Racer, posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 11, 2007, at 13:40:27
GirlI:
This thread is very, very interesting.
My feeling is that when your T asked what does it mean to you to feel she was annoyed, she was trying to discover important things about you and was functioning the way I expect a good T to function. She may not be a good fit for you right now, she may not be what you need right now, but from what you've said I don't see her as dishonest, unethical, or incompetent.
You've said repeatedly that you "despise" her. On the face of it I'd say don't continue to work with someone you despise (despise is a very strong word---who else in your life do you despise?), but the fact that you are writing and thinking so much about this (and the fact that you haven't quit her)indicates to me that there's something worth exploring here. Your strong reactions are worth exploring, and I think maybe somewhere deep you know this.
Also, just curious.... Did you realize you said to Racer that you'd "get back AT her" instead of what I'm sure you meant: get back TO her. ?
My feeling is that this could be a very valuable therapeutic relationship, but of course only you can decide whether to quit her or to go along for the bumpy therapeutic ride for a while.
Posted by henrietta on September 11, 2007, at 20:12:34
In reply to Re: Very partial response... » girlnterrupted78, posted by henrietta on September 11, 2007, at 19:51:47
It occurs to me that the "at" "to" thing may be a generational colloquilism disconnect. Sorry about that. (I also tend to be overly concerned with prepositions---maybe I ought to see somebody about that.) I hope you won't discount everything else I said because of that tic of mine....I do stand by rest of my post. I think you could benefit from working (and it IS work!) with this therapist. And I wish you all the best on this journey.
Posted by Racer on September 11, 2007, at 20:26:56
In reply to Re: Very partial response... » Racer, posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 11, 2007, at 13:40:27
> >
> Thanks a lot for your response. If you could simply tell me what's your interpretation of my T (you said at some point she has a good deal going on for her.. and that you'd get back at me later..) I just would like to know what your interpretation of her behavior as I've described it would be from a third party--yourself!
>
> Thank you again, I really appreciate your time :)
> GI78
>
>Hi, I've got to disengage from this now, because I just don't have time. Yesterday, my "brief" response took nearly an hour, and I have a couple of deadlines this week which must be met, so this has to be it for me. If it's incomplete, I'm sorry -- I just have to take care of my own stuff right now.
Anyway, both Honore and Henrietta have already said a lot of good stuff, most of which I agree with. Here are the things that struck me in reading through your posts:
1. You said that your T said two or three times that she wasn't annoyed. If I told someone I wasn't annoyed, and that person continued to ask me if I was annoyed -- or even told me that I was annoyed -- that would begin to annoy me. I don't think your T was necessarily lying to you when she said she wasn't annoyed -- she could have become annoyed by the direction the session was taking.
2. When she asked what difference it would make how she felt, that's a valid question. It doesn't have to mean, "none of your business," it could just mean, "we're here to discuss you, and you're asking about my emotional state -- why don't we discuss the impact of my emotional state on you?" It could also have meant something like, "my emotional state really isn't relevant to where we want to go right now," or been a sign she thought you were avoiding the issue which brought it up in the first place.
Mind you, I'm not your T, so I don't know what was going on for her. Those are just some of the things that came into my mind from your description.
3. "How will therapy with you work" is a question which could be taken in a number of different ways. It sounded to me as though she heard "how does therapy work," and answered that. You were asking a different question, so her response wouldn't have been very satisfactory. Had you been asking the question she answered, though, I'll bet the textbook answer you described would have been just fine.
4. In describing her, you've repeated phrases like "too sensitive," or "takes everything personally." Those are trigger point phrases for me, so I'm not going to say much about them. Just this: what is the definition of "too" sensitive? What you've described of your stepmother's behavior does sound pretty out of line -- but I'm not hearing that in your description of your T.
5. You're obviously have a very difficult reaction to this therapist. I'm wondering how much of this might be related to resentment that your "good" T left? That could certainly feel like abandonment, even if you *know* all the reasons it isn't. Knowing doesn't make any difference in feeling, at least in my experience. I won't ask if you think you've given her a fair chance or not, though.
6. About defense mechanisms: I'm going to pull a quote out of your post:
"> Defence mechanisms are helpful and, if used in a proper manner, are healthy. However, if misused, the defence mechanisms may also be unhealthy
Where would this apply? Who is using a defense mechanism? Myself? if so, how?"
EVERYONE uses defense mechanisms! Defense mechanisms are not at all the same as "being defensive." Using humor in an otherwise distressing situation is a defense mechanism. Denial can be a healthy defense mechanism, if it allows you to face something overwhelming -- in fact, denial is probably the best response to something like a cancer diagnosis, since it allows you to do what you have to do to get through treatment. Defense mechanisms are not bad, not negative, not pathological, they're normal. The goal of therapy is, in part, to learn to use healthy, adaptive, effective defense mechanisms.
7. I'm going to quote another part of your post:
"She claimed she felt'uneasy' because she felt I was attacking her. I used to have this kind of "talk" with my previous T--one where we'd challenge each other to get to the root of a problem. So I guess I just tried the same approach with her; I was trying to engage her in the same way to get to the root of the problem, and she took it as an attack and reacted by giving me an angry look and using an angry tone of voice. Does this sound more like HER projection on me?"
Two quick points to make: it makes sense to me that she might feel uneasy about the discussion you describe. For someone who doesn't know you, what you've described could be taken for something called "splitting." If that's how she took it, she'd likely be uneasy, because splitting can be the kiss of death to therapy if it's not handled appropriately. Regardless of your actual state at that moment, if she was seeing splitting, she'd be treading very lightly over that minefield.
Secondly, while you may have had that sort of "talk" with your former T, I'll bet it took a while to build up to it. I'd be willing to bet that you're seeing this more as a continuation of therapy, and she's seeing it as the start of therapy. That makes sense, but it still leaves you on separate pages.
Anyway, I hope you do find a good therapist, one who suits your needs at the time. I'm sorry I don't have time to continue this, but I really don't.
Posted by annierose on September 11, 2007, at 22:40:00
In reply to Re: Very partial response...P.S., posted by henrietta on September 11, 2007, at 20:12:34
Seconding henrietta's post - I just wanted to add - that it appears on the surface - her blank slate approach is aggitating your consciousness.
And when that type of transference is going on in the therapy room - well - it's so darn HARD to work through. You have mentioned that she keeps bringing herself into your therapy, but you really haven't written how that is so. Sometimes that anger is coming from inside of us and it gets pasted onto the person in firing range --- and that person in the room at the time is your therapist. Especially when you mentioned having similar feelings with your previous therapist.
Of course, it's your therapy. If it's not working for you, then it's not working.
Your comfort level is important when choosing a therapist.
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 12, 2007, at 0:10:03
In reply to Re: Very partial response..., posted by annierose on September 11, 2007, at 22:40:00
Thank you everyone for your input on my situation. Your responses are greatly appreciated.Racer: Thanks a LOT, you wrote TONS for me, I really appreciate that. I totally understand you're busy, so don't even worry. You've done a great deal already. Thanks again.
As for my session today: My T just recently returned from a 1-month-long vacation, so I stopped seeing her all through August.
Things had been improving slightly when she left--but only as long as I submitted myself entirely to her method of therapy. She also appeared to be doing an effort in helping start the therapy, talking a little more and giving me a little more feedback. Why? I have no idea. If she has her own method, I'm not sure why she'd modify it for a specific patient, but she's trying to make things work, I guess.
But regardless of her effort, I don't feel any kind of connection or chemistry with her. I don't know if that's something necessary in therapy. All I know is that I don't get excited to go to therapy the way I used to get excited to see my previous T. (Oh, and by the way, I was with my previous T for a short time only--I've been with this T longer now, so time has nothing to do with my connection with my previous T. I think I connected with him from session #1)
With my previous T, I knew that an interesting session awaited me.. a session where I could be entirely myself, where I could talk the way I do, I could be angry if I needed to, and we'd talk about the problem immediately through open communication. It was truly a space where things worked out.
With this T, I know that what awaits me is discomfort, forcing myself to talk, forcing myself to pick a topic, forcing myself to tell her about my life, etc. I don't connect with her, she's just a stranger whom I ended up having to see.
I guess I don't despise her anymore. Mostly because I see she's doing an effort. I despised her during the period where she was constantly annoyed unwilling to discuss what was the matter. But before she left for her vacation, she had attempted some changes. I'm just confused on whether those changes will help us feel more comfortable together.
So far in therapy, we have spoken about several issues of my life, without ever reaching much of a conclusion, or without working on them fully and deeply. I wonder how does that help me in any way. I guess I'll give this T some more time to see if her new approach will eventually turn beneficial for me.
Thanks again guys, I'll respond to the above posts sometime during this week.
GI78
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 12, 2007, at 8:53:23
In reply to Re: Very partial response... » girlnterrupted78, posted by Honore on September 11, 2007, at 16:11:46
> It's hard to say, but my interpretation of your T's behavior is that she probably thought you understood her approach to therapy--which you may not have initially.
She never spoke about it, so I never really "understood" it. Our first sessions were spent with my intro. As in, why I'm here, what are my symptoms of depression, family history, etc. Eventually, we ran out of topics, so we were like... now what? That's when she became quiet and I had no clue what else to bring up, but she always had this expectation from me, and I didn't know what to do. Yet she said nothing, no guidance, no suggestions, just silence.
> She may have thought you were having trouble talking, but didn't want to start things, because what was important to you mattered and she didn't know what it was.
I guess she could have explained that to me. Communication is key, right? No communication here. Or hardly so.
> She believed that if she was patient and waited, you would find those things, and it was better to give you the space.
No clue what she believed. There was a point where we knew we had gotten "stuck" yet, I brought up the reason why we were stuck: I wasn't happy with the several times she had been annoyed, and I couldn't continue talking to her because her annoyance interfered with my ability to trust her. I was totally uncomfortable and partly angry at her because of her attitude. I expected that if I had done something to annoy her, she'd discuss it. But nothing. I felt ignored and disrespected by that. I knew something was wrong, but she'd avoid discussing it. When you have a friend and you known they're annoyed at you, the normal thing is to TALK about it. It is the same with any other person. I wanted to clarify things with her, but she refused. So she shut me down and I refused to talk.
> Then you were what seemed more angry at her, and she wasn't sure how to handle it, but tried to remain within her way of handling therapy, despite what possibly felt like your pressure, or even defensiveness (in that you might be feeling judged or uncomfortable with her silence).
Like I said, it was not so much her silence, as her attitude and my sense that she was annoyed at times and I had no clue why. I felt the need to clarify things, but she'd refuse to. This made me more uncomfortable and it made me shut down. I can't open up emotionally to someone I know is uneasy or annoyed at me. I requested an explanation, and I was ignored again. Then I was pissed.
>She could have felt confused and uncertain how to proceed in a constructive way. But you did seem very dissatisfied with her, and this made her also somewhat uncomfortable. Probably she wasn't sure what had caused it all, or whether you were ready or able to talk about what might have caused your feelings about her.
>
Well, she couldn't know if I was ready if she didn't try. I think it was important to have a conversation at that point about our relationship. But since she would simply NOT start it herself, I had to do it myself, and I did.> She didn't think her emotional state (like annoyance) was the issue, because but rather looked for some explanation in your emotional history and how you see the world.
Annoyance in therapy should be discussed, I think. IMO, this could potentially ruin the relationship, especially if things aren't dealt with at the time they happen. How can a relationship flourish if there's no open communication? Especially in a therapeutic environment, where open communication is so important? That's *my* view. But if my T was looking for some explanation in my emotional history--she was then ignoring our relationship and ignoring the current problems, allowing things to get out of hand and risking a falling out.
> I'd tend to think she didn't feel annoyed, so it seemed that your feeling this was imported from some old relationship, pehraps that with your grandmother. Even if she wasn't like your grandmother in all ways, you could, in her mind, have been seeing her partially through the lens of your experience with your grandmother.
Well, maybe she was not annoyed, but she was clearly uncomfortable and it happened more than once, so I felt the need to know why, as a way of improving our relationship and the therapy. When I was met with resistance, I was angry. Why, you may ask? Because once again, my belief is that therapy is a space for OPEN and HONEST communication. I needed to know what was wrong in order to (a) correct it, and (b) get to know my T better, (c) continue therapy in a more positive way. The reason I was angry is because I interpreted her unwillingness to talk as a weakness on her part, and as neglect of the therapeutic environment, because I NEEDED to know what was wrong in order to continue to feel comfortable talking to her, and she denied me that need without stating a reason. Basically, I felt she ignored my needs. This I interpreted as lack of professionalism, and from there things went downhill, because I began to lose respect for her.
> That, at least, would be my guess about what your T was thinking during the therapy. Of course I could be wrong, and it doesn't mean that her approach is at all good for you. There can be mismatches in style and temperament,which can lead to misunderstandings and miscommunications that are hurtful and baffling to both participants. I very much hope you find someone who radiates more warmth and responsiveness and who can engage you in as good a way as your prior T.
Thanks a lot. It was indeed a bad experience trying to be honest with her and trying to fix our differences. She first replied to my questions, but in the end, she showed up furious after our talks--something that I never understood WHY, and something that I can't forget, and probably will never be able to discuss with her because I risk another angry session. Not sure if she understood that I needed an honest relationship in order to continue trusting her. For her, my attempts at honesty were met with resistance and anger, even though I was simply attempting to have a more satisfying and open relationship with her.
> Honore
Thanks again, Honore
GI78
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 12, 2007, at 23:19:05
In reply to Re: Very partial response... » girlnterrupted78, posted by henrietta on September 11, 2007, at 19:51:47
> GirlI:
This thread is very, very interesting.
My feeling is that when your T asked what does it mean to you to feel she was annoyed, she was trying to discover important things about you and was functioning the way I expect a good T to function. She may not be a good fit for you right now, she may not be what you need right now, but from what you've said I don't see her as dishonest, unethical, or incompetent.Thank you for your comments, henrietta.
When my T asked me what's the relevance of knowing if she was annoyed, I believe I told her that I felt uncomfortable talking to her knowing she was annoyed. I think it's normal, isn't it? Would anyone feel comfortable talking to a T, knowing that the T is annoyed at something you're doing, but you really don't even know what it is, and the T will not talk about it? Wouldn't you demand open communication from someone you're supposed to be entirely honest with? That was my only request from her. Open communication. I needed her to communicate to allow me to continue to be open with her. Otherwise, I felt totally uneasy about continuIting the therapy.
> You've said repeatedly that you "despise" her. On the face of it I'd say don't continue to work with someone you despise (despise is a very strong word---who else in your life do you despise?),
I guess I did despise her for a while. But right now those feelings are starting to fade. That, based on the fact that she is doing an effort to accommodate my needs by helping me start the sessions, and by giving more feedback, which she knows I need, and which are supposedly not her actual style--so she's doing this just to make things work out.
So while I did despise her (especially during the difficult period--which is most of what I wrote about in my OP) those angry feelings are starting to fade. Not that I'm starting to like her a lot or connect with her--I still feel sort of forcing the situation to make it "work out".. but I do recognize she's doing an effort and that makes me see her in a very different, more positive light.
As for who else I despise in my life? I guess only a few jealous former college classmates who made my life difficult in a competitive environment through dirty play. Those are probably the only people I can think of who I despise. I hate it when people use dishonesty--rumors and gossip--to ruin a person's chances to succeed, out of envy or whatever their feelings were.
I can't think of anyone else I despise in my life. But I usually despise people who act in outrageously unethical ways, at the expense of a person who is innocent and well-intentioned.
> but the fact that you are writing and thinking so much about this (and the fact that you haven't quit her)indicates to me that there's something worth exploring here. Your strong reactions are worth exploring, and I think maybe somewhere deep you know this.
Yeah, I'm sure there might be something positive in the end. At least learning to deal with people I don't initially get along with might be therapeutic--since I usually just walk away from those. I'll see how things turn out. This might be a good experiment that might deal with issues that might be well hidden in me. I'll give it some time and see how it turns out.
> Also, just curious.... Did you realize you said to Racer that you'd "get back AT her" instead of what I'm sure you meant: get back TO her. ?
That was very likely a typo. English is my 2nd language, and sometimes I write words the wrong way--even if eventually I realize it's wrong. I did in fact realize it was wrong and corrected it, but then my computer got disconnected and when I went back to the original page, I ended up sending the non-corrected version. Thanks for the observation, though.
> My feeling is that this could be a very valuable therapeutic relationship, but of course only you can decide whether to quit her or to go along for the bumpy therapeutic ride for a while.
Yeah, you're right. I probably won't quit it at this moment. I couldn't, knowing she's doing an extra effort, and considering our last session went pretty decently well. I still doubt I could trust her with certain things in my life, but maybe in the future I will.
Thank you for your input
GI78
Posted by henrietta on September 13, 2007, at 19:18:46
In reply to Re: Very partial response... » henrietta, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 12, 2007, at 23:19:05
I would never have guessed English was your second language.
I think it's great that both you and your T are making an effort to adjust to one another's styles of communication. It sounds very promising, and I wish you all the best in this endeavor. I think you have an excellent chance of benefiting from therapy with your present T, but even if things don't work out, you've got some very good material for processing with your next T.
I'd say good luck, except that I know it's not luck, it's hard work.
Posted by henrietta on September 13, 2007, at 19:51:31
In reply to Re: Very partial response... » Girlnterrupted78, posted by henrietta on September 13, 2007, at 19:18:46
every bit of progress you make!
Posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 14, 2007, at 2:27:37
In reply to Re: Very partial response..., posted by annierose on September 11, 2007, at 22:40:00
Thanks for your message, annierose,
> Seconding henrietta's post - I just wanted to add - that it appears on the surface - her blank slate approach is aggitating your consciousness.
I don't know if it's the approach, or if it's her. I honestly don't like her. Can you imagine having to talk to a person you don't really like, and on top of that, having to begin the conversation about YOUR life, with a T you don't like or trust? And then she won't do anything that puts you at ease in the therapy.
She'll offer an uncomfortable silence and her expectation that YOU give that intro to make both of you at ease. How do you do that, when you don't even like the person, and when you're depressed as hell? It's awfully hard and annoying and something you just feel like running away from. But I've had to do it and deep down, it doesn't feel as if she truly has the ability to create rapport with you. She expects YOU to create rapport with her. It makes me feel like I'm doing 80% of her job. And *I* am the one who is depressed. *I* am the one who needs help. How can someone depressed do all the work for a T?
> And when that type of transference is going on in the therapy room - well - it's so darn HARD to work through. You have mentioned that she keeps bringing herself into your therapy, but you really haven't written how that is so.
Ummm.. I'm not sure if you misunderstood. By bringing herself into the therapy, I didn't mean she talks about her problems. I meant her problems come out in the therapy. Problems like anger, anxiety, and inability/unwillingness to communicate openly and honestly in the therapeutic enrvironment.
For example, she told me (after *I* began a whole session of OPENING UP and speaking on how we feel in therapy)--she confessed she felt afraid that her comments might offend me, so, on many occasions she kept her thoughts to herself. So I think that's a problem of hers. Therapists shouldn't restrain themselves out of fear (I think.)Then I sensed the anger issues. Why can't she control her anger WHILE at work, while at therapy? Her anger had a negative impact on me and created a major problem that took 3 sessions to resolve. So thats what I meant when I said her own problems came out in therapy. She can't resolve things through communication.. she'll push things under the rug and reflect anger--which in turn had such a negative impact on me, that I began despising her and hating the therapy.
Also her sensitivity. I told her she took everything too personally. I made a comment, and she felt I was attacking her, while I honestly wasn't. I explained and explained to her what it was, and then she understood. But initially she felt I had something against her.
And I was the one who resolved these issues by having the initiative of using a session to open up about what was going on. We both recognized something negative was going on, but she was NOT the one to open up. In fact, she resisted a LOT. Eventually, when she saw I was being very honest without getting upset or blaming anyone, she finally opened up.
So can you see how her problems sort of "came out" in therapy? I would expect that if a therapist realizes there's trouble, they would be the first ones to open up to honest discussion. But not this one. She seemed lost in space, while I was totally uneasy and uncomfortable because our relationship wasn't going well. If I hadn't been interested in opening up, the problems with my T would've continued till the point of me quitting completely the therapy with her.So I hope I was more clear now on what I meant when I said she brought her problems into the therapy. She allowed her negative emotions to have a negative impact on me and the therapy, and instead of discussing it, she pushed it under the rug, denied it, and allowed it to impact me. l
> Sometimes that anger is coming from inside of us and it gets pasted onto the person in firing range --- and that person in the room at the time is your therapist. Especially when you mentioned having similar feelings with your previous therapist.
No, I didn't have similar feelings with my previous T. I got along extremely well with him and felt comfortable from the start.
My anger with this T began when HER anger began, and when I felt she wasn't providing what I desperately needed in order to feel comfortable. I felt neglected. I felt she didn't do any kind of intro that put me at ease, or tried to create rapport. I felt she expected me to be the guide, the talker, the one who'd trust her without knowing her. She expected me to be EVERYTHING. All that lack of WORK on her part angered me because I felt completely uncomfortable about starting therapy with someone who didn't have a personality or a presence, and who I didn't even like talking to, to begin with. It was as if she were a shy individual who expected me to do her job because she didn't know how to do it and/or was afraid to. I didn't get a sense that she was acting out of knowledge or therapeutic style, but rather, out of being incapable of doing her part.
And I'm sure most people would say: "Oh no, that's impossible. That's totally YOU projecting."Fine. But answer this question: Is it really impossible to find a therapist that doesn't feel comfortable talking and that instead expects her patient to do the job? Is that something impossible? Because what I get from everyone's comments here is that it's simply IMPOSSIBLE that there could be a neglectful, unprepared therapist on the face of earth, and the patient who dares have that impression, is SURELY projecting. There's no other possibility, because every T on this planet is qualified, fair and prepared, the only explanation for any problems is projection of the patient. Sounds as if the T wasn't human to begin with. As if it was an expectation that they had no baggage or were superhuman.
Thanks again for your comments
GI78
Posted by Dinah on September 14, 2007, at 9:12:07
In reply to Re: Very partial response... » annierose, posted by girlnterrupted78 on September 14, 2007, at 2:27:37
> Fine. But answer this question: Is it really impossible to find a therapist that doesn't feel comfortable talking and that instead expects her patient to do the job? Is that something impossible? Because what I get from everyone's comments here is that it's simply IMPOSSIBLE that there could be a neglectful, unprepared therapist on the face of earth, and the patient who dares have that impression, is SURELY projecting. There's no other possibility, because every T on this planet is qualified, fair and prepared, the only explanation for any problems is projection of the patient. Sounds as if the T wasn't human to begin with. As if it was an expectation that they had no baggage or were superhuman.
That’s not what I’m getting from people’s comments at all. Of course it’s possible for a therapist to be neglectful and unprepared. I’m sure there are many of them. I think we’re not necessarily seeing that from what you describe. We’re seeing a therapist who is doing things not so differently than many of our therapists. The difference is that our therapists managed to establish a therapeutic relationship with us that was positive. Your therapist hasn’t. It might yet happen or it might not. I’d be inclined to cut losses and move on. My therapist has always said that what you say doesn’t matter if you don’t say it in a way the client can understand and accept. I can understand that you’d like people to see in her what you see in her. And maybe if we were in the room with her, we would. But we’re not in the room with her. I really do understand if you’re upset with our responses though. Sometimes I come here really wanting to have people validate that my therapist has done something terrible (or wonderful) only to discover that others have interpreted things differently.
> For example, she told me (after *I* began a whole session of OPENING UP and speaking on how we feel in therapy)--she confessed she felt afraid that her comments might offend me, so, on many occasions she kept her thoughts to herself. So I think that's a problem of hers. Therapists shouldn't restrain themselves out of fear (I think.)
Here’s an example of something my therapist *has* done many times. He doesn’t do it out of fear. In the early days he would have considered it more important to establish the therapeutic alliance than to speak every thought in his head. He’d have concentrated on a few thoughts he thought would most directly address what brought me to therapy. Even now he doesn’t consider it necessary to tell me everything he thinks. And frankly, I think that’s for the best.
But in a situation such as that you describe, he might have said something about my wanting him to speak openly about how he feels, and then he replied that he felt like he couldn’t speak as openly as he might because he senses I get angry with what he says, and that I got angry at what he said in response to my request to openly share. I might or might not feel he'd captured the moment accurately, and he might or might not have. But he's said that sort of thing to me many times.
> I didn't get a sense that she was acting out of knowledge or therapeutic style, but rather, out of being incapable of doing her part.
See, given the medium of the written word, and a second person account, there’s no way for us to get a sense of that. We’re only hearing her words and actions, and for the most part those sound pretty standard to some schools of therapeutic thought. But it’s possible that she does sound so textbook because she *is* inexperienced. How long has she been doing this?
> I don't know if it's the approach, or if it's her. I honestly don't like her. Can you imagine having to talk to a person you don't really like, and on top of that, having to begin the conversation about YOUR life, with a T you don't like or trust?
IMHO, this is the crux of the matter. I can’t imagine doing therapy with someone I dislike. I wouldn’t do therapy with someone I dislike. I have walked out of therapy for just that reason. Approach aside, research has shown that nothing as important as a good therapeutic relationship. If you don’t have it with her, surely it’s worthwhile finding it with someone else? If you discuss this therapeutic relationship with your next therapist, you could still get many of the benefits you would by staying with her. Less maybe for it not being immediate, but more maybe for your not disliking the person saying it.
> Thanks again for your comments
> GI78I hope you still feel that way. :)
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 14, 2007, at 19:44:06
In reply to Re: Very partial response..., posted by Dinah on September 14, 2007, at 9:12:07
Thank you so much for your long and thoughtful response, Dinah.
> Of course it’s possible for a therapist to be neglectful and unprepared. I’m sure there are many of them. I think we’re not necessarily seeing that from what you describe.
I just get the feeling that people pick and choose from what I write. For example, nobody ever commented on the day she came furious to our session, and first pretended she didn't remember about our last 3 sessions (important and MAJOR sessions!) and later claimed "of course I remember!" I mean, that was totally rude and inconsiderate of her, and I see that not a single person considered that particular incident. Everyone focused on the positive to be able to say "she is just normal and YOU are the one projecting."
Or the fact that she would not open up when I needed to talk. If I ask whether she's upset or annoyed, it's because I need to know (in order to continue the therapy, and I said this to her.) But I recall, I think it was Racer (who made some great points, by the way), who said that if I asked over and over, then *she* might have been the one annoyed at my insistence. What about me?? That means I matter so little.. and she matters so much that she can refuse a patient's question 3 times and even be annoyed about it! I wouldn't need to ask over and over if I didn't think it was extremely important. I asked because I knew that if I didn't get an answer, that was the end of therapy. Her behavior had shut me down and I was no longer talking because I felt totally uncomfortable, so it was absolutely necessary to hear what was going on.
Or when I claim she was annoyed.. people claim I'm projecting. Isn't that almost saying that I am a pretty bad judge of character, unable to tell whether someone is happy or angry? If someone tells you "My best friend is pissed" would you answer: "I think you're projecting. She couldn't be pissed.." ??
> I'd be inclined to cut losses and move on.
Thanks for the suggestion. I am totally torn apart on that decision. My previous T (the good one) suggested that a difficult relationship with a T might signal some problems to work through, which might be beneficial. That's one opinion. Other opinions, such as yours, are opposite. I myself don't have enough knowledge of therapy to know. I fear that in a year or so, I will realize opinions like yours ("things might never work") will prove to be true, and all the time and money I might have wasted will be dreadful. It's so complicated that I have no idea what to do.
>I can understand that you’d like people to see in her what you see in her. And maybe if we were in the room with her, we would. But we’re not in the room with her. I really do understand if you’re upset with our responses though. Sometimes I come here really wanting to have people validate that my therapist has done something terrible (or wonderful) only to discover that others have interpreted things differently.
Well, I'm not really all that upset, the only thing that kind of got to me was the fact that people seem to pick and choose among incidents, and exclude some major incidents while using her positive attributes to form their opinion of her. Like the issue I wrote about in my response above--regarding her coming to therapy, angry and lying, the session following our OPEN UP session. That was a major turning point in my therapy, since it was the first time she finally spoke up, and she CLOSED completely the topic of our relationship not working out. After that day, I fear bringing ANYTHING up. Now I know I can't.
So, that incident nobody even considered. Why is that? How could a therapist come and use anger and lies with a patient, and even pretend she doesn't remember the last 3 sessions.. But later, (once I expressed shock at her not remembering) she admits she DOES in fact remember? Again, this is something I wrote in previous posts, but which people dismissed as totally insignificant, to only talk about her positive attributes. I felt her behavior was unacceptable. How come nobody considers this when they get a picture of this T? Or maybe nobody thinks it's wrong? I am really confused about people's ways of picking certain incidents and not others in order to form their opinions.Her unacceptable behaviors were either ignored/justified, while all the good ones were quickly used in her favor. I sense some bias here, in favor of using "projection" to explain any therapeutic relationship. I might probably be biased too because I'm the one *in* the situation.
People don't have to agree with me, but they should see the whole picture, not just the good things. Or maybe they think it's normal T behavior to show up furious and lie? When I said she was sarcastic, someone said "she doesn't sound sarcastic to me!" lol. I guess they can also claim to know how she sounds in order to justify her.
> But in a situation such as that you describe, he might have said something about my wanting him to speak openly about how he feels, and then he replied that he felt like he couldn’t speak as openly as he might because he senses I get angry with what he says, and that I got angry at what he said in response to my request to openly share. I might or might not feel he'd captured the moment accurately, and he might or might not have. But he's said that sort of thing to me many times.
Well, THAT sounds like he is being honest and very open. Were you really angry? It took my T a LOOONG time to admit this. More than 3 sessions of myself opening up with her for her to finally say how she felt. And before admitting it, she gave her angry session. So was your T giving you no feedback at all when you asked him to speak openly?
With my T, I noticed her silence, so I began to ask for her input, and that's where the problems began. That's when she began to seem annoyed. I guess I was sort of expecting an open relationship with her, similar to the one I had with my previous T, so I thought I could just talk to her openly and ask questions. But instead, she felt I was crossing her barriers. That's why I was shocked. I was trying to engage her by asking her what she thought of a specific situation, and one time she even said I was "insecure" because I needed her reassurance. Geez. That pissed me off because I wasn't asking for reassurance, but simply trying to engage her and start a more lively conversation than the annoying monologue I was giving.
> See, given the medium of the written word, and a second person account, there’s no way for us to get a sense of that. We’re only hearing her words and actions, and for the most part those sound pretty standard to some schools of therapeutic thought. But it’s possible that she does sound so textbook because she *is* inexperienced. How long has she been doing this?
I've never asked her how long she's been a therapist. At this point I fear asking. That would be sort of crossing my boundaries and the barriers she has set. I feel as if she had these barriers I can't cross, and I have to make sure my dialogue always excludes her COMPLETELY, so I always leave her out of my monologues, and allow her to talk only when she decides to. Basically she has to have her little bubble, and I can't go near. I talk about my life and she comments when she wants, but I can't ask her.
> IMHO, this is the crux of the matter. I can’t imagine doing therapy with someone I dislike. I wouldn’t do therapy with someone I dislike. I have walked out of therapy for just that reason. Approach aside, research has shown that nothing as important as a good therapeutic relationship.
Really? Hmmm.. Do you happen to have a link on that? The only reasons I have stuck it out are (a) My previous T (the one I had a great relationship with) told me that a difficult relationship might be beneficial because it could signal issues that I need to work on, and (b) she's making an effort to make things work--so I'd feel bad to terminate it despite that.
But if there's research showing that what I'm doing will be negative, damaging or worthless in the long run, and that I'm wasting my money, then I'd have to re-think my reasons for being with her, and possibly begin looking on how and when to terminate this. Thanks a lot for that info, Dinah.
>If you don’t have it with her, surely it’s worthwhile finding it with someone else? If you discuss this therapeutic relationship with your next therapist, you could still get many of the benefits you would by staying with her. Less maybe for it not being immediate, but more maybe for your not disliking the person saying it.
Yes, I guess you're right. But I also run the risk of ending up with someone worse! I can imagine that sliding-fee clinics like the one I go to don't have the best doctors/therapists around (just consider my shrink--he prescribed me an overdose of Nardil, denied it was an overdose despite the reaction I had to it, and later denied Nardil's side effects and said: "that's not Nardil--go see your primary doctor." I later found in the actual Pfizer website--in the doctor's manual for the care of patients on Nardil!--that the side-effects were in FACT, caused by Nardil, and most people on this website who are on Nardil had them!!! Talk about doctors who know what they're doing!!)
So I guess I'm not going to be very excited about going to someone else.. but hopefully I'll feel more comfortable..
Thanks a lot for your response. I'll keep you posted on what I end up doing.
Sincerely,
GI78
Posted by Dinah on September 14, 2007, at 20:20:10
In reply to Re: Very partial response... » Dinah, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 14, 2007, at 19:44:06
I'm afraid research isn't my strong suit, but a google search turned up this. Maybe it will give you some terms to do some further googling.
http://psychiatry.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/1996/901/1
I understand the dilemma of not wanting to go from bad to worse. I'm sort of in the same situation with my pdoc. Not that there's anything wrong with him. I am just scared of him. But I'm scared that if I try to find someone new, I'll get someone who is worse than just scary. Maybe someone who doesn't know what he's doing.
You know, I can understand why your previous therapist would have said that a difficult therapeutic relationship could be beneficial. I think it probably can be very beneficial to learn to work on relationships in real time with someone who is trained. In general I find working on not all that difficult relationships challenging enough. And my pet theory is that there is no change before its time. Maybe I've never been ready.
I suppose there's some off chance that maybe my willingness will ripen, and it will be time for me to tackle that. :)
Posted by muffled on September 14, 2007, at 22:06:35
In reply to Re: Very partial response... » Girlnterrupted78, posted by Dinah on September 14, 2007, at 20:20:10
This is the end of the thread.
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