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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 13:46:31
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.. » Amanda29, posted by raisinb on August 3, 2008, at 13:39:27
My therapist doesnt believe in labels...he diagnoses his patients with labels but once he starts seeing them as patients, he only focuses on the symptoms of the label...he doesnt say.."oh well, here is Amanda who is BPD, bipolar,OCD Depressed, anxious..etc etc...he sees my symptoms...whereas I see myself as my labels. My labels define who I am as a person. And they shouldnt. This is where my therapist and I differ...he doesnt believe that it defines me, but being borderline is all I know...I DONT KNOW how to live NOT BEING BORDERLINE. And, if I want to get better, I have to work on the symptoms that make me Borderline. Which by the way, I am prety upset because I just realized that bpd is a learned disorder...that my parents are the ones that gave me the disorder..baised on how they raised me..and that I can fix it if I change my behavior! I didnt realize this and now I feel as if I have wasted the past 3 years of therapy for my therapist. I feel horrible.
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 14:01:06
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.. » raisinb, posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 13:46:31
I didn't mean to make it sound that way, Amanda.
There are a lot of complex factors that go into it. It's not like you just chose to behave this way. Linehan's book is really good about talking of the biological and environmental factors involved.
Parents do the best they can, given who they are. Just as you're doing the best you can. You haven't wasted the last three years, and you aren't responsible for how your therapy has gone. If your therapist wanted to address your behaviors by teaching you other ways to respond, he could have.
But really, they're very helpful books. Or you might want to look into DBT groups, which can also be useful in teaching the skills.
You can possibly also do a google search on Marsha Linehan and DBT. She has,or had, a website out there.
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 14:04:34
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 14:01:06
Thanks. I am just so confused right now as to how to be and how therapy should be and how my therapist is treating me ...he is a good psychologist...I just feel so sick...and he confirmed how sick I am which makes me feel just GREAT. But I cannot stop going to him because I really do like him and he does really help me..I am just hurt because now I really see the way he sees me...
I will look up those books... :)
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 14:06:13
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.. » Dinah, posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 14:04:34
I spent a year arguing with my therapist over schizotypal personality disorder, so I do understand how you feel.
I wish they'd do away with the whole personality disorder section, and replace them with "characteristic methods of coping". Which is all most of them are.
Posted by healing928 on August 3, 2008, at 14:40:00
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by Looney Tunes on August 2, 2008, at 23:02:20
BPD is just a label to help treat the symptoms. It is a manageable disorder, but you have to have a therapist that truly understands it. Yes, I consider it a disorder that I have. Some think of the word disorder in a negative way, but the behaviors are irrational. Most people with BPD were not validated as children, and had stormy relationships with parents. Yes, environment and biological factors come into play, but this is a poor impulse control disorder, and you have take control of your recovery, find a therapist who truly has experience and training in BPD.
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 17:21:45
In reply to Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by Amanda29 on August 2, 2008, at 18:40:59
Do you think that my therapist "likes me" as a person? I know that is probably hard to answer, but do therapists tend to just see their patient as soemone that is sick..and nothing else? I am not looking to mean MORE to him...I just want to know that he is OK with me. and that i am not just a patient with BPD that is like every other patient with BPD that is annoying and challenging and difficult to work with. (i hate it that he told me these things..) I want him to see me as being "normal" whatever that may be. To me normal is someone that doesnt have all these disorders..and I have them all.
Posted by healing928 on August 3, 2008, at 19:01:47
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 17:21:45
I know my therapist likes me because gave me feedback when I told him how connected i feel to him. He has told me how he really likes me, and how he is amazed by some of our sessions. I can sense if he isn't having a good day, and just can sense things. he says that because my emotions are so that helps me feel empathy towards others and that is a good thing.
I know I will never be more than a client to him. I also know he will always be there as my t. I have said some really crappy things to him, but he always forgives me, and even when I terminated our relationship he is taking me back. My point is, he is my therapist, and I am his client, and that is what it is. I see him on Tuesday for the first time since I terminated our relationship about a month ago. In an email the other day I said, "I am looking forward in seeing you. I hope that doesn't too overly clingy." He responded, "No, and he looks forward to seeing me as well."
My point, be honest about your feelings, and you may get the feedback you need. We also need to be realistic, they are our t's and we went to be more, but they aren't going to break any ethics for us. I don't feel romantic transference for my t, more like a fatherly love, but I still want more. Anyway you look at it attachment, transference, and dependence it all hurts like hell!
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 19:05:41
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by healing928 on August 3, 2008, at 19:01:47
I am being overly honest with my therapist right now...I have emailed him and told him exactly how I feel..and I think that he is thinking I am just trying to create drama when the reality is I am being completely honest about how I am feeling..(not about him...about me and my issues). I am a very honest person when I am talking to him..)at least I try to be.
Posted by healing928 on August 3, 2008, at 19:40:53
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.. » healing928, posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 19:05:41
I am so sorry he is not giving you what you need. Does he have experience and training in BPD?
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 19:45:56
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by healing928 on August 3, 2008, at 19:40:53
He says he does...and I know he has at least one other patient with it because we are in group therapy together with him. I am really hurting by all this, I shouldnt be but I am. This is like a death sentence to me. I am not one to cause self harm to myself, but there are times that I wish I could...when I was addicted to anxiety meds at least I was numb...now I cant be anymore.I dont know how to stop my thoughts and the more I think about my disorder..the more upset I get. He does know how to treat BPD...apparently he has been trying to treat me and I have been resisting..BUT HE NEVER SAID ANYTHING...he just continues to treat me in hopes that I will get better! Now that I know I havent been doing what he wants me to..I feel horrible and I feel like I have wasted his time. I just emailed him and told him I should rot in hell for being who I am and that I am at total fault for having this disorder...that had I reacted differently when I was growing up..I might not have it now. (I know I am overreacting...) but I am so upset. He is going to look at this as me trying to create and start drama...but I am really upset.
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 19:54:53
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by healing928 on August 3, 2008, at 19:40:53
My therapist told me he wanted me to make a goal to be in a relationship by the end of August. My thing is this, who would want to be with me? I cannot hold a relationship with ANYONE. I have social anxiety I am scared to go out in public, I have a fear of rejection and abandonment..I am a walking mess...how can he expect that from me?
I am scared to be in a realtionship because I have been rejected so many times and I dont want to get in one, for him to find out how messed up I am ..and for him to leave me. I just wouldnt be able to handle it.I believe there is someone for everyone, but I dont know if it is true for me.
I hate to think that I will be alone the rest of my life and that I will die alone all because of my mental illnesses.
Posted by Looney Tunes on August 3, 2008, at 21:40:36
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 19:54:53
You know, I want to contradict something you keep implying. You keep implying that BPD is a learned disorder and that by simply changing your behavior, you can change the disorder.
BPD is a result of genetics and an invaidating environment. In the majority of cases, the invalidating environment is abuse or neglect. Because of abuse and neglect or other invalidation, the developmental process of the child is messed up. The child never learns object consistency, never learns appropriate attachment, does not separate from the care-taker properally, etc. All these developmental stages determine the outcome of how one relates as an adult. All these developmental processes determine one's ability to function "normally" in relationships.
If one never learns the object consistency (ie when someone leaves, it is not permentantly gone), as a child, they will have difficulty with it as an adult.
BPD is not learned. BPD is a result of development disruption. As part of this disruption, the child learns to cope in their own way. These coping mechanisms may lead to full-blown BPD symtpoms later.
DBT does attempt to make you learn coping skills, but it CAN NOT remove the developmental disruptions that make relationships so difficult for a BPD.
While I stated that the majority of BPD have been abused, there are also cases where the child might have been colically and cried all the time. The parents could not meet the child's needs all the time, as a result the child expereinced this as invalidation.
By stating that this disorder is something as easy as changing behavior, it is somewhat insulting, because I can guarentee that most BPD would change in an instant if it was that easy.
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 21:46:23
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder..NOT learned, posted by Looney Tunes on August 3, 2008, at 21:40:36
This is just what I have been told by my therapist...I am not trying to imply anything I am repeating what I have been taught. I was told that if I change my behavior...the symptoms will go away and I wont be considered bpd. I am not TRYING to insult ANYONE that is bpd. I have been very insulted by my therapist and I am now having to deal with it on my own.
Posted by Nadezda on August 3, 2008, at 21:58:04
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder..NOT learned » Looney Tunes, posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 21:46:23
To say that someone has an invalidating environment, is to say that they learned certain things from relating to their parents-- things that often undermined, or destabilized their sense of being okay, acceptable, loved or understood.
That is definitely learning-- not genetics. And while the disruption is in the past and therefore part of one's history, the behaviors, and rhythms of feeling and the beliefs about the world and about oneself can be changed, though becoming aware of, adapting to oneself, and practicing new ones.
So I have to differ with the idea that way of l iving that's called borderline personality disorder cannot be changed through learning about oneself and learning new ways of coping.
Nadezda
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 22:09:03
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder..NOT learned » Looney Tunes, posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 21:46:23
I'm sorry if your therapist, or I for that matter, gave you that impression. It isn't really fair or compassionate to yourself to think of it in those terms. If it were as easy as changing your behaviors, you'd have done it by now I'm sure.
The diagnosis may be defined behaviorally, but that doesn't mean you can just change it. As I understand it, behaviors are an attempt to cope with or regulate strong emotions. It's not just a question of stopping. It's a question of learning new ways to cope with the intensity of your emotions. It's learning new ways of emotional regulation.
http://behavioraltech.org/downloads/dbtFaq_Cons.pdfThe above link may be helpful. I know of this website because I've ordered some of her materials. I haven't read this particular FAQ, but I know that Marsha Linehan's conceptualizations have helped me an awful lot. I hope they're helpful to you.
You're the same person today you were before your therapist told you these things. There is nothing that needs to be done today or tomorrow. You have time to look into it, and find out all you can.
You might find out that your therapist is the one who can help you with this, or you might find that he isn't. His own issues have a lot to do with whether he is or not, so I hope you aren't blaming yourself for what are his emotions and his responsibility.
As strange as it may seem, you're more or less doing your job as client. You are bringing your issues to therapy. You're trying to understand and work on them. How he responds is up to him. I hope he responds in a helpful manner.
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 22:12:31
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder..NOT learned » Amanda29, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 22:09:03
Thank you. He is a wonderful therapist, it is just right now I am having such a hard time with this and he isnt responding how I want him to. But I know he wants to help me, I just need to be patient.
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 22:18:59
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder..NOT learned » Amanda29, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 22:09:03
Also, I've found it useful to think of my behaviors as helpful or not helpful as opposed to right or wrong. Beating yourself up over something you've done doesn't do as much good as evaluating whether the behavior achieves its desired goal. If not, are there behaviors that would be more helpful in achieving your desired goal?
What is your goal with your therapist right now? What behaviors of yours are most likely to achieve that goal?
If you do have borderline personality disorder, what are your goals now that you know? What behaviors can you engage in to meet those goals?
And down to the shortest timeframe, it would appear that you're feeling pretty upset right now. What has worked for you in the past to reduce the intensity of your distress? Do breathing exercises help? Have you had any success with meditation or yoga or exercise? It may sound silly, but I remember a time when watching Fawlty Towers was remarkably effective at reducing my level of distress. The other day when I had an anxiety attack, I found substantial relief by talking to friends and distracting my mind.
What helps you?
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 22:23:35
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder..NOT learned, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 22:18:59
Honestly, in the past, I would abuse my anxiety pills to make me feel better...(ended up going to rehab because of it) so now that is not an option...but, I used to swim...I stopped that and have since then gained 30 pounds...I cannot talk to my family about this because they just dont understand...but I do have a cousin who used to be a counselor and she and I are going to meet for dinner or something this week and I am going to talk to her...(hey, it is good..FREE THERAPY) :) I have tried breathing exercises, and guided imagery and those don't work. I also just go to sleep and try and forget everything, but that leads to making me depressed..so that is not a good coping skill.
Posted by Nadezda on August 3, 2008, at 22:24:45
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder..NOT learned » Amanda29, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 22:09:03
Another thing-- any therapist who works with BPD (any therapist, really) will emphasize that it's not your fault that you have these problems.
It's very very important not to move into self-blame-- because that's part of the invalidating way of thinking that can be really hurtful to you-- and because you don't deserve that. None of this is your fault-- you didn't choose your biological sensitivity and you didn't choose your environment.
I'm sure you therapist, even if he finds the work challenging and even draining at times-- finds it very meaningful and worthwhile to work with you. Otherwise he doesn't have to do it-- he could choose not to work with certain people-- but he seems to prefer to have you in his practice. I think what he means is that some of what you do to yourself and to him isn't necessary, in the future-- that there is hope that you can work, over time, to change your life significantly.
So even if you're going through a very hard time now-- there is a lot of potential, if you stick with the work, and try to see more clearly how you're reacting to situations, internally and externally-- and to try to move toward emotional regulation and interpersonal effectiveness-- as Dinah was suggesting--
It's hard to do-- but it can be done. For the moment though-- don't blame yourself, or think that your therapist is blaming you, or wishing he'd never seen you-- or anything like that. He's said he's committed to you-- and I think you should take him at his word.
I'm sure he wouldn't want you to blame yourself, or to think worse of yourself because of the things he said. Maybe he was too strong and confrontational in how he said that-- therapists can do that at times-- but I think he would say that that certainly wasn't what he wanted.
Nadezda
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 22:28:53
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder..NOT learned » Dinah, posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 22:23:35
If swimming helped for you, you might try things in the area of physical activity. Do you have a yoga tape? Or can you do some stretching exercises? Stretching is not only a physical exertion, but it would also force your muscles to relax.
Can you start swimming again?
My husband is one of those people whose emotional state improves a *lot* when he gets regular exercise. Maybe you're like him.
I think it's great that you're staying away from destructive coping mechanisms!
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 22:33:22
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder..NOT learned » Amanda29, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 22:28:53
Well, dont congradulate me just yet...I did this weekend have a lapse and used vicodin and valium. I am ashamed at myself because I was doing so well. But i am hurting SO MUCH. I Cannot stand to live with myself. I know I probably sound like the biggest baby...but im not handling being mentally ill and I have been like this pretty much all my life...and but now that it has been officially diagnosed, I am a mess. My last therapist terminated me because she said I was too messed up to receive help from her or my psychiatrist...so I am scared to death that my therapist is going to eventually say that....
Posted by Nadezda on August 3, 2008, at 22:41:35
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder..NOT learned, posted by Nadezda on August 3, 2008, at 22:24:45
I 'm in a DBT group, by the way, and I was just looking through the section on distress tolerance.
Some of the suggestions they make are things like distracting yourself-- with activities or things that you enjoy, listening to music that's upbeat and calming, thinking about things you're grateful for (there must be some, after all), just encouraging yourself-- saying to yourself : even if this is hard now, there is hope for the future, and I can do it- and many things like that.
They also say that changing your physiological state is very helpful. They suggest exercise-- even taking a walk or jumping in place-- breathing of course, creating intense physical sensations (one in particular they recommend is putting ice or cold water onto your face), squeezing a rubber ball really hard, taking a hot or cold shower, and things like that.
I know from experience that doing these things is incredibly difficult when you're really upset-- so maybe you'll find yourself not wanting to do them. If so-- don't feel bad-- it really is hard and takes practice.
But it's amazing how you'll find that over time-- when you think better thoughts, or just relax your muscles that are most tense, or concentrate on a sensation for a while-- you really do start to feel better. And you begin to realize too that saying bad things to yourself will actually be part of a cycle of feeling worse.
If you say-- it's hopeless--- you'll feel more hopeless; if you say to yourself, there's hope, I will get better-- you'll feel a little hope creep in. I know it sounds mechanical-- but I find that this really works for me.
Everyone has to find the things that work for them- and it's different for everyone-- so these may not be the right ones for you. But I thought maybe something would strike you as helpful.
Nadezda
Posted by healing928 on August 3, 2008, at 22:55:32
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder..NOT learned, posted by Looney Tunes on August 3, 2008, at 21:40:36
I am sorry if I upset you. I DID NOT say it was a learned disorder. I do agree that BPD is mostly caused by abuse, neglect and invalidation. We There are many variations of BPD from mild to severe; if we remove the symptoms, you remove the dx. I have done this for long periods of time, but never had a therapist I trusted. Until the last 15 months. Lifestyle changes are also the key. When I feel emotions coming on and do something healthy like going to the gym that helps.
I am very frustrated that people take BPD as a death sentence. (Including professionals)
BPD is an IMPUSE CONTROL DISORDER. DBT IS A BEHAVIORAL CONTROL therapy to help our emotional regulation.We have to learn effective and healthy ways to cope with this disorder. The core of DBT is mindfulness, which address emotional regulation, and acceptance. I am not saying a full recovery from BPD will happen overnight, but it is possible.
http://www.unimaas.nl/default.asp?template=werkveld.htm&id=PEP31055QXI5531J7I0S&taal=en
Posted by Cecilia on August 3, 2008, at 23:57:45
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 19:54:53
Your therapist told you that HE wanted you to make a goal to be in a relationship by the end of August?!!!! You're in therapy to meet YOUR goals, not his! I would think seriously about whether this therapist can help you or whether you should look for someone else. Cecilia
Posted by Amanda29 on August 4, 2008, at 5:58:01
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.. » Amanda29, posted by Cecilia on August 3, 2008, at 23:57:45
I know. I put that goal to rest because there is no way that i would be in a realtionship feeling the way that I feel right now. MY goal is to help myself to fee; netter
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