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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 17, 2009, at 21:26:03
In reply to Re: Psychoanalysis question, posted by antigua3 on June 17, 2009, at 16:17:31
Well, and I know this is just my opinion, I think that it is legitimate for you to ask about your relationship if he is the one that believes in transference. If he lays the groundwork for working out transference in the therapeutic relationship, and then refuses to engage in discussion about transference ("the relationship"), then it's like he's planted irises but refuses to acknowledge they exist whenever you point out how well or not well they are doing. It's just invalidating. It's not like you are asking him about his wife or dogs or neighborhood (I'm assuming) when you ask about things going on between you and him. I don't, of course, know the history of your relationship or what else you've talked about in therapy. It just seems to me that the one thing a therapist should be is validating, even if s/he is challenging too (not challenging to talk to, but presents challenges for you to work through in a supportive way). Have you directly asked why he avoids such discussion?
> >He kind of sounds like an @ss (acknowledging that I know nothing about him and that there are probably real positives that I'm not seeing right now). Is your T comfortable with your pdoc practicing psychotherapy with you?
> >
> Oh, pray tell, what makes you think that? Seriously, I'm interested. Let me have it. I can take it.
> antigua
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 17, 2009, at 21:37:04
In reply to Re: Psychoanalysis question » antigua3, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 17, 2009, at 21:26:03
I guess I should respond in psychodynamic-speak, which is not comfortable to me, so let me rephrase this. Transference isn't something anybody conjures up; it is supposed to happen naturally. If your therapist wants to be a blank slate to attain that transference, well, he's already gone beyond that process by talking about it (he's presuming it's happened; you seem to indicate that it has happened). So why pretend that it isn't happening after already acknowledging it has? Why not then discuss it? Perhaps I'm just not getting it. I have to admit a bias against psychoanalysis (and maybe that translates to understanding it imperfectly). I read about things therapists say or do to already emotionally-vulnerable people in the name of "therapy" and it makes me really mad. Having said that, I have to also say that in grad school I did really accept many theories of the psychodynamic school, more so than classmates. I just think that in practice, it is tricky, and it can be damaging.
So, have I mucked up the issue more? I hope not, antigua. I just truly want the very best for you, and everyone here. I want your T to be validating and supportive. It's my hope that I have grossly misunderstood, and that there is much to recommend your T that I don't see right now.
Take care, Amelia
> Well, and I know this is just my opinion, I think that it is legitimate for you to ask about your relationship if he is the one that believes in transference. If he lays the groundwork for working out transference in the therapeutic relationship, and then refuses to engage in discussion about transference ("the relationship"), then it's like he's planted irises but refuses to acknowledge they exist whenever you point out how well or not well they are doing. It's just invalidating. It's not like you are asking him about his wife or dogs or neighborhood (I'm assuming) when you ask about things going on between you and him. I don't, of course, know the history of your relationship or what else you've talked about in therapy. It just seems to me that the one thing a therapist should be is validating, even if s/he is challenging too (not challenging to talk to, but presents challenges for you to work through in a supportive way). Have you directly asked why he avoids such discussion?
>
>
> > >He kind of sounds like an @ss (acknowledging that I know nothing about him and that there are probably real positives that I'm not seeing right now). Is your T comfortable with your pdoc practicing psychotherapy with you?
> > >
> > Oh, pray tell, what makes you think that? Seriously, I'm interested. Let me have it. I can take it.
> > antigua
>
>
Posted by antigua3 on June 18, 2009, at 7:56:49
In reply to Re: Psychoanalysis question » antigua3, posted by Annierose on June 17, 2009, at 17:15:04
Thanks for posting. It sounds like you have found a T who really understands you.
I'll post more below, OK? My T is psychodynamic and my life is an open book with her. And, as she will admit, she has a different opinion about boundaries, that she thinks at times they can be hurtful to the patient's healing, rather than helpful. Patient specific, I'm sure. As a result,I know a lot about her and her life, but not more than I want to know. I guess what I mean is that I feel free to talk about anything and to ask her anything I want. It's just very close, and maybe that's part of what makes it more difficult with my pdoc. I want to know nothing about him outside that room, about his real life, partially because it would be so painful, so I really respect him for having those boundaries. But I do think that what goes on in the room is fair game, that I should be able to get answers.
To be fair, when I asked him about what it means when he doesn't respond to my questions about our relationship, he replied, "It means I'm listening."
again, thanks,
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on June 18, 2009, at 9:19:42
In reply to Re: Psychoanalysis question, posted by FindingMyDesire on June 17, 2009, at 18:36:15
I'll answer whatever you ask.
I did experience intense transference with my T in the early years of our relationship, especially when she would go away for the whole summer, as they tend to do, and I just thought I would die with wanting to talk to her so badly and her not being available.
She patiently worked through this with me and I guess I got past it. I still experience transference with her as it relates to my unmet needs from my mother. Like a child, I run to her when I need the comfort, support and availability that my mother never provided.
My mother wasn't abusive like my father; she was just completely unavailable for many reasons: I had a very sick younger brother, there were six of us, my father abused her emotionally, physically and sexually as well, but mostly it was because she had real issues of her own. She was hospitalized twice in the years after my father left.
I know how much she loved me, but I never felt safe in turning to her when my father sexually abused me. That said, being a mother myself now, I realize she did many, many things that allowed the abuse to happen, and I'm working on the anger (finally!) that has started to emerge about her unavailability.
It mostly comes up when my T is unavailable and that triggers these feelings and now we talk about them. Secretly, I want to express this anger without directing it at my T. See? I'm still trying to protect my mother!
You said,
(Makes me wonder in general about whether therapists, psychologists, pdocs, etc. actually *decide* to work in this way or does it just "happen" cause we are clients in these structured relationships with the needs we have.)I agree with this wholeheartedly. I think my pdoc flounders with me at times and it's like I can see a switch actually being turned on when he is trying a different approach. As I've said, he says he primarily practices CBT (which has been very helpful for me, although I have been very resistent at times. CBT doesn't work for everything IMO), but he incorporates "other" approaches as needed. I guess I need to discuss with him more what these "other" approaches are so I can figure out what he's doing. When asked before, he mentioned psychodynamic, but when my T mentioned psychanalytical psychtherapy, and i looked into, a lot of bells went off.
So here's what happened. I wrote earlier about how I'd felt my little girl had died, and that, in fact, he had killed her when he said she had to die. He was pushing integration of the little girl and I was resisting. The devastation that I felt when he, my paternal transference object, representing my father, told me that the sweet little girl had to die was overwhelming, to the point that me, a woman who has a great husband (mostly) and three amazing children, was contemplating suicide.
Within days of his push for integration, I experienced three entirely new flashbacks about things that I had no inkling had ever happened. Well, maybe one of them was lurking, but I'd always hid from it. They all came crashing over me like a strong wave from the ocean that just knocks you to the bottom. I was more than overwhelmed. The next week it happened again--I "completed" a flashback that had come out in the past month or so, meaning that I had remembered up to a point what happened and then I just disassociated. This flashback brought the whole experience back to me in full detail: the sounds, smells, how my body felt, etc. It was really awful.
I was just so overcome that these new things had emerged. I had no clue about them. I've always held certain memories about parts of the abuse, but this was going to new territory, with new people and experiences. I'd known I'd been abused by two men, but now I knew there was another man and an experience with a group of people I'd never, ever suspected.
And let me make clear, these were flashbacks, not memories. There is a huge difference between these two things, and these were flashbacks.
What I think happened is that my pdoc broke down a barrier I've been trying, unsuccessfully, to do for years. By forcing me to believe that the sweet, little girl had integrated, her memories finally became accessible. The other night my pdoc said that what had happened that by letting the girl "in," I could no longer disassociate myself from the events. I had used dissaociation to protect, and survive, as a young girl and that option was no longer available. I now "knew" what she knew. He denied that he had said the little girl had died and I understand that yes, she will always be a part of me, but she has gone into hiding really, and I feel like I've lost the best part of myself, because she held those things, too. I know that's irrational. I know she is still there, but it hurts very badly that she is gone. Devastating, in fact, but she will find her way back.
I didn't see my pdoc during the time these flashbacks occurred, but I did speak with him on the phone and he reassured me repeatedly that I would make it through this and he wasn't going to abandon me.
I didn't even get to tell him about all the flashbacks until I saw him this week, two weeks after this all happened so after discussing whether he had killed the little girl or not, I told him that's what I heard from him and that's what mattered most.
So, naturally, most of our time was spent with me recounting the flashbacks as much as I didn't want to. I did want to tell him about the most recent one, but I did want to explore his role in all of this and really, our relationship in terms of the transference that had occurred because of this. But he wouldn't bite; he kept the focus on the flashbacks. His reaction was confusing to me; he was using the blank slate thing on me and that felt invalidating. All things to talk about. I do know, however, was that his primary goal was to keep me safe, so maybe he thought the blank slate would be safest, given the circumstances. I don't know, maybe I'm excusing his behavior or just defending him.
One last thing. I know the flashbacks aren't over. There are at least two more. I have memories about an experience I had that aren't quite "right," that there is something to know there. Also, the most terrifying one is still left, I've always felt physically that it is there, but I've never been able to access it. So I'm on guard.
But a huge burden has been lifted off of my shoulders, and while it was painful in how it transpired, it worked. I've reached a point I've been aiming for for years and there is no turning back.
About his not answering my questions. As I mentioned above, it's not that he didn't answer, I just didn't think his answer was helpful. In the past, there has only been one question he has refused to answer and that will be brought up.
Sorry to be so long, but you, too, have been so helpful to me and I wanted to answer your questions. It wasn't the refusal to discuss our relationship last time that triggered the transference with my father, it was him killing off the little girl as I interpreted it that triggered it.
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on June 18, 2009, at 9:43:52
In reply to Re: Psychoanalysis question, posted by antigua3 on June 18, 2009, at 9:19:42
Posted by antigua3 on June 18, 2009, at 10:06:01
In reply to P.S., posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 17, 2009, at 21:37:04
Now for you, my dear.
You're absolutely right about what you've said, abut the invalidation and how therapists hurt already emotionally vulnerable people. My pdoc does do that at times. I recognize it.
But in my case, you have to recognize that he is the very first male T that I've opened up to and have ever felt safe (for the most part). I have undergone many types of adjunct therapy through the years with my own T and this pdoc's CBT approach has been the only one that has really worked.
I have had terrible experiences with male Ts, and men in general, in my life. I have experienced painful transferences with male Ts that have devastated me, mostly because of being abandoned, and have experienced transference with males throughout my life that have never been resolved. So, in going into therapy with this pdoc, I knew what I was doing, given his approach, attitude, etc. I experienced negative transference for years, and once I fully realized what I was doing (and testing him had a lot to do with this), I was able to stop this self-destructive pattern.
He hung in there with me through some awful behavior on my part. He gets a few points for that.But, he has many faults in my eyes, and it has been hard separating out what belongs with me, and what he is responsible for. I'm still learning.
Yes, we've discussed transference a lot and we seem to view it differently is all I can say. He sees a typical transference reaction while I have guarded myself against having any sexual transference with him because I know how harmful that would be for me. As he says, I "realized" the Oedipus complex, so I'm very savvy about not transfering these feelings onto him. Simply put, at this point, I do not have these feelings for him. I don't long for him and I don't want him, which I've told him. Recently, he brought up the "I'm not available" part and that was hurtful because, in fact, I don't want him.
Yes, until we come to understand why transference is happening with a particular person, we are practically defenseless in having it happen. It just happens sometimes and as patients we need to come to understand why and work through it. If my pdoc continues to deflect this issue, then I will know that this part of therapy cannot work with him.
But, I've made huge progress, and I'm proud of it. Sometimes almost in spite of what he says or does because I have my T, who helps me sort through what is going on.
As both my pdoc and I agree, if I walk out that door, I will walk out knowing that I am much better off. But he says I'm not done yet, and these transference issues need to be resolved and while I can't say I have confidence they will be fully resolved, or could ever possibly be with him, I'm not leaving until I get what I need. That's a strength I never knew I had.
But I do agree with you. But I also understand that given my history, I could be misunderstanding him, and we are fighting for the relationship. Maybe in different ways, which is really important to consider, but I've never made it this far with a male authority figure and I know a part of me wants to "win", if that makes any sense, and I won't leave until I've won, or thrown in the towel believing that I gave it my best effort. That may be the best it gets, but I'm not there yet.
I know I didn't really answer you, and it appears like I'm defending my pdoc, which given my history is a natural response, but I do agree with what you've said.
antigua
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 18, 2009, at 12:23:09
In reply to Re: P.S. » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by antigua3 on June 18, 2009, at 10:06:01
(((Antigua))) I want to validate and support you for all that you've done in therapy and how far you've come. Good for you. Sounds like you are not in a vulnerable place and are able to tease out these issues, which is great. I know you will work out what is the best decision--if there is a decision to be made--in the end.
> Now for you, my dear.
>
> You're absolutely right about what you've said, abut the invalidation and how therapists hurt already emotionally vulnerable people. My pdoc does do that at times. I recognize it.
>
> But in my case, you have to recognize that he is the very first male T that I've opened up to and have ever felt safe (for the most part). I have undergone many types of adjunct therapy through the years with my own T and this pdoc's CBT approach has been the only one that has really worked.
>
> I have had terrible experiences with male Ts, and men in general, in my life. I have experienced painful transferences with male Ts that have devastated me, mostly because of being abandoned, and have experienced transference with males throughout my life that have never been resolved. So, in going into therapy with this pdoc, I knew what I was doing, given his approach, attitude, etc. I experienced negative transference for years, and once I fully realized what I was doing (and testing him had a lot to do with this), I was able to stop this self-destructive pattern.
> He hung in there with me through some awful behavior on my part. He gets a few points for that.
>
> But, he has many faults in my eyes, and it has been hard separating out what belongs with me, and what he is responsible for. I'm still learning.
>
> Yes, we've discussed transference a lot and we seem to view it differently is all I can say. He sees a typical transference reaction while I have guarded myself against having any sexual transference with him because I know how harmful that would be for me. As he says, I "realized" the Oedipus complex, so I'm very savvy about not transfering these feelings onto him. Simply put, at this point, I do not have these feelings for him. I don't long for him and I don't want him, which I've told him. Recently, he brought up the "I'm not available" part and that was hurtful because, in fact, I don't want him.
>
> Yes, until we come to understand why transference is happening with a particular person, we are practically defenseless in having it happen. It just happens sometimes and as patients we need to come to understand why and work through it. If my pdoc continues to deflect this issue, then I will know that this part of therapy cannot work with him.
>
> But, I've made huge progress, and I'm proud of it. Sometimes almost in spite of what he says or does because I have my T, who helps me sort through what is going on.
>
> As both my pdoc and I agree, if I walk out that door, I will walk out knowing that I am much better off. But he says I'm not done yet, and these transference issues need to be resolved and while I can't say I have confidence they will be fully resolved, or could ever possibly be with him, I'm not leaving until I get what I need. That's a strength I never knew I had.
>
> But I do agree with you. But I also understand that given my history, I could be misunderstanding him, and we are fighting for the relationship. Maybe in different ways, which is really important to consider, but I've never made it this far with a male authority figure and I know a part of me wants to "win", if that makes any sense, and I won't leave until I've won, or thrown in the towel believing that I gave it my best effort. That may be the best it gets, but I'm not there yet.
>
> I know I didn't really answer you, and it appears like I'm defending my pdoc, which given my history is a natural response, but I do agree with what you've said.
> antigua
>
Posted by antigua3 on June 18, 2009, at 15:04:44
In reply to Re: P.S. » antigua3, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 18, 2009, at 12:23:09
You are very kind. I know there are plenty of people on the board who don't "like" my pdoc for me. It's OK. Really.
Thank you for your validation and support,
antigua
Posted by twinleaf on June 18, 2009, at 15:18:29
In reply to Re: P.S. » antigua3, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 18, 2009, at 12:23:09
I go to a psychoanalyst, and am having a wonderful experience with him. It is a modified form of analysis, as i sit up. facing him; also, he is very responsive- not a blank slate at all. Why be biased against psychoanalysis, or any form of therapy? Why not just be respectful and appreciative that there are kinds of therapy which may not be right for you, but which are great for others?
Posted by antigua3 on June 18, 2009, at 20:35:22
In reply to psychoanalysis..., posted by twinleaf on June 18, 2009, at 15:18:29
I'm not biased at all. I'm sorry if it came across that way. Honestly and truly. I feel very badly that you think I was doing that since I have so much respect for you and everything you've been through, and your willingness to be such a great support here.
I'll crawl back into my hole, now. I've been posting too much.
Again, please accept my apologies.
antigua
Posted by twinleaf on June 18, 2009, at 20:45:32
In reply to Re: psychoanalysis... » twinleaf, posted by antigua3 on June 18, 2009, at 20:35:22
Oh no, Antigua, I wasn't saying that to you! I think we are very much on the same page when it comes to therapists- your two may not be analysts, though perhaps they are, but they definitely seem to be psychodynamic. My comments were actually directed to Amelie. She appears to favor CBT, which is great, but it seemed to me she was putting down analytic approaches. Because analysis has been so helpful to me, i wanted to stick up for it!
Posted by antigua3 on June 18, 2009, at 23:33:15
In reply to Re: psychoanalysis... » antigua3, posted by twinleaf on June 18, 2009, at 20:45:32
Posted by rskontos on June 19, 2009, at 1:11:26
In reply to Re: Psychoanalysis question » antigua3, posted by Annierose on June 17, 2009, at 17:15:04
> I see a psychodynamic therapist who is a blank slate type of therapist - but not entirely. I mean I know certain truths about her as a person - not stuff about her personal life. She offers her clients both a sitting type sofa and a traditional analytical one. I've done both and hate both. I prefer a hidden corner with a blanket over my head (but she won't let me try that).
Antigua, is this what you mean by blank slate. That he refuses to discuss anything of a personal nature. I don't think my psychoanalyst refuses to speak of his personal stuff, it is really me that imposes that rule. When I did ask him about whether or not we did pschyoanalysis therapy he said mainly. We do sidetrack I imagine because we do get personal but not really too personal as I don't go there. If and when I ask something personal, which is really rarely, he will readily answer. I could give example if that is helpful. But I guess for me that personal information is not helpful nor wanted. Probably for me defining our relationship isn't where I am at the present and it seems you are. I am still reading the thread and the posts so I will probably post more.
I would say at this point I am so much more comfortable with my analyst. I am used to him being told something like for instance a strange dream I had, really really strange and he did not comment on what he thought it meant. I did not ask he did not comment. Now he might when we meet again. Or if I bring it up. We discuss my dream alot because I am having nightmare according to my husband but I don't remember them. And I usually remember my dreams. Plus my panic attacks are on the rise. Something is trying to surface.
All for now more later.
rsk
>
> She does answer questions when posed. And she wants to talk about our relationship - especially when I bring it up. She believes our relationship is a very important element to our work.
>
> So I'm not sure I have answered your question.
Posted by rskontos on June 19, 2009, at 1:15:16
In reply to Re: Psychoanalysis question, posted by FindingMyDesire on June 17, 2009, at 18:36:15
Now I will say my pschoanalysist says quite often about transference being important. Where I see him as a good mother figure. He is very a man and that seems hard to be but I understand he means taking a caring and supportive role that my mother should have taking and how that will allow me to be better in my other roles an d future relationships. I get it, but I am not completely there. A little closer.
Again, I am the one that shies from the discussions, they made me feel weird he gets and lets it drop.
but revisits from time to time.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on June 19, 2009, at 1:27:23
In reply to Re: psychoanalysis... » twinleaf, posted by antigua3 on June 18, 2009, at 20:35:22
Antigua,
What I am going to say is much different. Because like you I have railed against my p-doc, I have told him he has offended me, I have told him he has reminded me of my father (very bad thing) and interesting he apologized but also said he wasn't sorry for acting like a father because I never had a real one and I deserved one but that he would back off and let me decide my own course of action and would respect it.
Sometimes he said things that at first I thought how rude, I left and cried but eventually when I was calmer (ater taking a xanax or two) I realized what he said was right. And exactly what a good parent would said. Not always sugar coating everything.
He has told me when I am wrong but he has tried over and over to instill the good things he sees in me that I am unable to see due to years of programming.
I think often times their methods seem wrong to us because of who we are, how we came to be the who we are, and yet we need the difference to help us become the potential we have to be. The method maybe hard to take but its purpose in the long might just work. Sometimes when we demand them to answer us and we long to hear something in a certain way that might be all wrong for us, and we just don't know it yet. But down the road we will have the skills and knowledge to begin to see what our therapist are trying to show us and then we can expand on that to make sense for us.
I still maintain I see promise for you and him. He has helped bring out something that while hard and very difficult it did need to be brought out into the light of day to be reduced down to what it really is and dealt with once and for all so that you can regain a life lost.
I hope this helps. It is just what i am beginning to come to see for myself. a little.
take care and peace to us all. one day it will be ours.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on June 19, 2009, at 1:28:19
In reply to Re: psychoanalysis...Antigua » antigua3, posted by rskontos on June 19, 2009, at 1:27:23
Posted by antigua3 on June 19, 2009, at 6:59:40
In reply to Re: Psychoanalysis question, posted by rskontos on June 19, 2009, at 1:11:26
No, the blank slate that I felt was in response to me pouring out my flashbacks and him just taking it in and just reflecting back this huge nothingness. Didn't say anything at all about what I'd told him. As if he almost wasn't even there, and he wasn't going to interpet anything, at least at this point, but allow me to interpet it myself without any input. (He did ask one stupid question, which made me feel like he hadn't been paying attention.)
It just felt invalidating and hurtful if I'm honest. He's not usually like this, but he does seem to do this when I'm recounting something.
BTW, I never ask anything of a personal nature. I don't want to know anything about him at all. If anything, he is the one who has brought up something about his family, but that has only been once or twice. I like hearing about his work, though--not his patients (LOL), but his research.
I know I'm hiding from actually accepting that he's a real person, but, really, I'm scared to death to know anythng about him because I'm afraid he will hurt me.
the only question he has refused to answer is when I asked him once why he asked me a specific question about something that had happened during our therapy. I had gotten quite angry over the question and wanted to know why he asked, but he wouldn't say.
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on June 19, 2009, at 7:11:06
In reply to Re: psychoanalysis...Antigua » antigua3, posted by rskontos on June 19, 2009, at 1:27:23
You've described our relationship pretty well, except I am still unable to see the "good" father in him. It may be there, and it probably is--I've been blind to a lot--but he certainly doesn't sugar coat things or necessarily try to make them any easier for me.
What I see is a man who possesses many of the attribute traits of my father--arrogant, rude, always right, egotistical, rigid and in my eye has very strict boundaries, although when he points out my faulty thinking in this last area, he is actually right. I'm not ready to accept that he might, and I say might, be a kind and compassionate man, although he has clearly shown me at times that he can be that way. I think that's part of why I don't want to know about his outside life--I just might find out how wrong (or right!), I actually am about him. These things all need to be discussed, I know.
thanks,
antigua
Posted by rskontos on June 19, 2009, at 11:36:37
In reply to Re: Psychoanalysis question » rskontos, posted by antigua3 on June 19, 2009, at 6:59:40
> No, the blank slate that I felt was in response to me pouring out my flashbacks and him just taking it in and just reflecting back this huge nothingness. Didn't say anything at all about what I'd told him. As if he almost wasn't even there, and he wasn't going to interpet anything, at least at this point, but allow me to interpet it myself without any input. (He did ask one stupid question, which made me feel like he hadn't been paying attention.)
>
> It just felt invalidating and hurtful if I'm honest. He's not usually like this, but he does seem to do this when I'm recounting something.
>
> BTW, I never ask anything of a personal nature. I don't want to know anything about him at all. If anything, he is the one who has brought up something about his family, but that has only been once or twice. I like hearing about his work, though--not his patients (LOL), but his research.
>
> I know I'm hiding from actually accepting that he's a real person, but, really, I'm scared to death to know anythng about him because I'm afraid he will hurt me.
>
> the only question he has refused to answer is when I asked him once why he asked me a specific question about something that had happened during our therapy. I had gotten quite angry over the question and wanted to know why he asked, but he wouldn't say.
>
> antiguaNow this post resonates with me. Mine will often do the same thing. But he will have a puzzling expression. I finally got up enough nerve to email (notice the nerve was still not face to face) why he did this. And that the face he made actually reminded me of the flashback faces. He admitted he did not realize the face he made was anything other than symathetic. I assured it was anything but that. It was actually kind of frightening.
But the pattern I finally have seen emerge with him, is one of he often reflects on all I give him, then over the course of the next several sessions we will discuss what I did tell him. It is like he takes it in megabytes versus the dump load I give him. Because in one sense it is a fairly overwhelming amount of stuff I lay on him at once when I finally open up. And in all honesty if we talked about it all I would probably explode. Often times he knows more how much I can take then I can. But it has taken me more time and knowledge of myself and acceptance to realize this and to understand his ways.
I think now, I would not have it any other way than this p-doc. Boundaries are important to me. More than I knew. Touchy feely stuff doesn't work well for me. For me to open up I need just his amount of blank slate in this case. He needs to take it in. Say nothing for a while and then we slowly talk about it. Because really for me, whatever he said would it be right when there is nothing right about what happened. Just getting it out there is healing. Because the secret is no longer a secret.
But I understand that for you this might be the exact wrong approach and you need him to know it, and I imagine he will either modify his approach or offer why he thinks it is necessary.
I also get not want to see him as a real person because then you might somehow start to feel responsible for him. At least that is how I felt. I think it is ok to feel this way.
I personally think it is ok to feel however you feel for however long you feel it. It will change when you are ready for it to change. However long that takes.
He might hurt you and he might not.
I might hurt you, anyone here might. I will try like h@ll never to hurt you but I have started to try and accept that hurt is part of relationships and because of how we all got to this point in our lives we avoid hurt like the plague.
And that is justified. My T and I had a discussion about how afraid I was to open up to him because tomorrow he might be gone and that would hurt. He said yes that is true but it is life.
I thought how rude and why the heck would a therapist say that.
But the more I thought about it I realized he was right. And it is something I would said and have said to my well-adjusted children along the way about many things. That hurt is just part of life.So I realized that dealing with hurt is something I have tried never to do as an adult. That a part of me said if I can help it no one will ever hurt me again. And so I stayed disconnected from the world for a huge amount of time.
Slowly I am re-engaging on my terms. I will only re-engage to a certain point because I feel I can only heal to a certain point. But that too is ok. I am who I am. Parts and all.
Sorry this is long but as always your posts move me. If you read this far you get a prize. Peace to you always. And always I will remain your friend who never wants to hurt you :)
rsk
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 12:27:52
In reply to psychoanalysis..., posted by twinleaf on June 18, 2009, at 15:18:29
I now do feel offended by this post. First, I have ever right to my opinion. Second, I have made it abundantly clear that my response comes of a place of care and concern. Garnet sounded incredibly fraught with despair. It sounded like she had been manipulated and battered by her experience with that therapist. She came back after calming down and explained that some of that was her interpretation, and that the therapist was actually quite kind and intelligent. I then supported her decision. Bringing this up after it's over is beating a dead horse.
> I go to a psychoanalyst, and am having a wonderful experience with him. It is a modified form of analysis, as i sit up. facing him; also, he is very responsive- not a blank slate at all. Why be biased against psychoanalysis, or any form of therapy? Why not just be respectful and appreciative that there are kinds of therapy which may not be right for you, but which are great for others?
Posted by antigua3 on June 19, 2009, at 13:22:16
In reply to Re: Psychoanalysis question/long, posted by rskontos on June 19, 2009, at 11:36:37
What's my prize? I want a really big one, OK?
You're right! I think he thinks he's projecting a sympathetic look, but it's hard to hold that look for too long, and yes, it does start to look a littly creepy. But you nailed it. And also, to be truthful, there isn't probably anything he could have said that would have been right. Well, maybe, "I'm sorry you had to go through that," but I still probably would have snapped back, "I don't want your pity." Pity is the ultimate degradation for me, for some reason. The difference is that he often doesn't bring these things up again or he ever so carefully catches me totally off guard when he brings something up and I never knew it had a relation to something else. Those insights...
You're also right. People die, leave us and at the hurtful extreme, abandon us. It's part of the circle of life, as I used to tell my children :) and we have to accept that. This is where my pdoc and I are headed (I've already thought about termination!) and I have to face these fears.
Baby steps, as Daisy says, when I want to take quantum leaps that end me up in places I wasn't ready to go!
Thanks so much. You've made me feel much, much better to know that I'm not alone.
antigua
Posted by rskontos on June 19, 2009, at 22:13:16
In reply to Re: Psychoanalysis question/long » rskontos, posted by antigua3 on June 19, 2009, at 13:22:16
Ok, you want a really big prize. Let me think about that. It has to be reallllllllly special to match its recipent.
Yeah. I guess we do, sometimes put our t and p-docs in impossible situations but then that is their jobs lol. It is hard I think for us though to make sense of relationships in the first place and then add to the mix that it is a professional yet caring yet boundary bound yet caring yet paid all makes for some confusion to say the least.Then add that we ahhhh shall I say haven't got the best communication skills. Mine hover between silence and yelling. No grays. No middle ground and certainly no way to shut me up once I am off and running. Which is why for now I stay away from my father. whole nuther story sad one too.
Anyway, glad I made you feel better. It helps to realize that we are all dealing with much the same in different ways to be sure but with chords that resonant with the same sounds to some extent.
Take care my friend.
rsk
And I am working on getting that big prize. Lottery maybe?
Posted by antigua3 on June 20, 2009, at 6:00:08
In reply to Re: Psychoanalysis question/long » antigua3, posted by rskontos on June 19, 2009, at 22:13:16
Posted by Daisym on June 20, 2009, at 21:52:35
In reply to Psychoanalysis question, posted by antigua3 on June 17, 2009, at 15:03:34
A - you wrote:
"So, naturally, most of our time was spent with me recounting the flashbacks as much as I didn't want to. I did want to tell him about the most recent one, but I did want to explore his role in all of this and really, our relationship in terms of the transference that had occurred because of this. But he wouldn't bite; he kept the focus on the flashbacks. His reaction was confusing to me; he was using the blank slate thing on me and that felt invalidating. All things to talk about. I do know, however, was that his primary goal was to keep me safe, so maybe he thought the blank slate would be safest, given the circumstances. I don't know, maybe I'm excusing his behavior or just defending him."
I'm late to this thread -( see what happens when you go away for awhile.) But this paragraph struck me as important. In trauma therapy, it is important for the survivor to tell their experiences and feel their experiences with a safe person. Even if you were "just" telling the flashback, not actually going back into the memory, it was still important that he didn't let you off the hook - and derail the conversation. Because one of the ways of hiding from the ugly stuff, is to focus on something else. It is common to get mad at someone so that you get a breather from talking about the painful stuff. I'm not saying the relationship isn't important, but I think my therapist would do essentially the same thing - although he would probably say, "let's stay with your flashbacks for now." As you said, you've worked hard to get to this place of memory retrieval, so it is really, really important.
My guess is that if he'd let you go the intellectual place of trying to understand the flash back trigger, instead of relating the flashback and emotional overwhelm, eventually you would have wondered if he didn't want to hear about it - if it was too awful for him. And his blank slate may really have been what you guessed - a way to keep you held and safe with lots of space while you told.
I hope you told him about feeling suicidal. It is important that he knows about this. And remember what I said before - these feelings are part and parcel with the flashback. I imagine that some part of you must have wanted to die when this was all happening. So it makes sense that these feelings emerge with everything else. And intellectually, it is impossible to wrap your brain around how brutal all these things were - and to understand why they would have happened at all. So while we want to know what lurks in corners, it is also super hard to know. It takes an amazing amount of strength to know. So be kind to yourself. I know Father's day can be a trigger.
Hugs, Daisy
Posted by antigua3 on June 21, 2009, at 8:58:49
In reply to Re: Psychoanalysis question » antigua3, posted by Daisym on June 20, 2009, at 21:52:35
Hi, I'm a little confused about what you meant here:
>In trauma therapy, it is important for the survivor to tell their experiences and feel their experiences with a safe person. Even if you were "just" telling the flashback, not actually going back into the memory, it was still important that he didn't let you off the hook - and derail the conversation. Because one of the ways of hiding from the ugly stuff, is to focus on something else. It is common to get mad at someone so that you get a breather from talking about the painful stuff. I'm not saying the relationship isn't important, but I think my therapist would do essentially the same thing - although he would probably say, "let's stay with your flashbacks for now." As you said, you've worked hard to get to this place of memory retrieval, so it is really, really important.
>
I wasn't just telling the memory, I was going back into the memory.So are you saying he was right to do what he did? Or wrong? You're right, I would have intellectualized instead of feeling the feelings. I do have a quick switch in my brain now that let's me know right away when I get angry at him, often it means something else. Getting angry at him is a defense.
He knows all about me feeling suicidal, and I've given a lot of thought to what you've said that this may be triggered by wanting to die/thinking I was going to die during the abuse.
I hope your trip was restful. And you take care today, too. Actually, to all babblers to whom Father's Day is very difficult, I'm hoping that you day is not too overwhelming for you.
antigua
>
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