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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by yellowbird01 on June 21, 2009, at 22:12:22
I go back to see my T again on Tuesday and I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to approach her, and therapy, with all the issues going on right now.
Awhile back, I bookmarked the post made by Dinah a few years ago about "being a Jessica" to your therapist. Being special. I imagine some of you remember it? It just felt like such a perfect explanation. I reread it tonight and it still feels very fitting to me.
The last round of therapy I did with my current T about 2 years ago, and all the ones before that with her really, I knew I was a "Jessica" to her. I knew I was special to her. I didnt always feel it, but I always knew, on some level, that she really cared. Maybe more, or differently, than she cared about some of her other clients. Now, it feels quite obvious that I'm NOT in that position any longer. In fact, it feels like she doesnt much care one way or the other. I'm just another client. We're not connecting.
I think we all want to be in that "special" role with our Ts. It feels so good, and it's hard to constantly have to question whether they care or not. Being in that "special" role makes it so much easier to believe they care, even when things arent going great in therapy. But has anyone here ever had that relationship with a T and somehow lost it? I feel very confused, afraid to trust her, hurt by it. It's not the only issue we're facing, but it's a big one for me.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Has anyone been there? Is it really important? I'd love to hear any thoughts, about my situation or just in general.
I hope you dont mind Dinah, but I'm going to link back to your post about "being a Jessica" for those who didnt see it. I think others might like it too.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20060121/msgs/604227.html
Posted by Kenya on June 22, 2009, at 13:31:40
In reply to Caring (and lack of) from therapist, posted by yellowbird01 on June 21, 2009, at 22:12:22
I'm going through this as well, right now.
My T used to make me feel like I was her only client. She even changed locations and made sure I was able to make the move with her before she quit the other location. She used to call and check up, and offered to come to the hospital when I was sick..
That's all changed. She doesn't even return my calls now. When I see her I get a lot of shoulder shrugs and generic comments. She doesn't even seem interested in what I'm saying anymore.
The good news is, I've gotten a lot better since I started seeing her, and my PTSD is very much under control now, so maybe she doesn't feel like I need her as much. Maybe it's a two-way distancing feeling. I'm not sure.
I get the same feelings though. I don't trust her anymore. I don't want to open up. I almost feel like I'm just wasting her time and neither of us want to be there anymore.
In any case, it sucks, and I feel your frustration completely. I don't have any advice as I'm struggling with this similar situation, but I understand what you're going though.~ Kenya
Posted by Dinah on June 22, 2009, at 19:16:08
In reply to Caring (and lack of) from therapist, posted by yellowbird01 on June 21, 2009, at 22:12:22
I'm delighted!
My therapist and I now love that post and he'll sometimes initiate the phrase.
I think there are times when yes, I do feel like I've been fooling myself to think myself a Jessica to him. In fact it happened just last week. Friday we had a very long talk about my perceptions and his perceptions and we sorted it out for this time anyway.
One thing that I was reminded of from that experience is that what we see is the tip of the iceberg. Even with my therapist, who I don't think of as being all that deep or mysterious. What I thought was going on and what he thought was going on were completely different.
Have you discussed this with her?
It's likely not that she no longer cares. Her behavior over a long period of time would not indicate that to be true. Is it possible that she sees her role differently? That she feels like she needs to back away a bit to be effective as a therapist to you?
I always muse that it really is impossible to shove the horse completely back in the barn, and not have it be more hurtful than helpful. One thing that's helped with us is to be more verbal about the process.
Is she willing to discuss this openly? And I'll share my experience that when I was angry and acting out my hurt with my therapist, I didn't get anywhere with him. But when I asked it more as "I don't really understand what happened. Do you know?" we had a really good conversation.
Your mileage may vary. My therapist is one of a kind. :)
Posted by yellowbird01 on June 22, 2009, at 19:45:27
In reply to Re: Caring (and lack of) from therapist » yellowbird01, posted by Dinah on June 22, 2009, at 19:16:08
Dinah, glad you dont mind me "stealing" your line there.. it really is a good one. :)
It's not a conversation we've really had yet, no. Honestly, I've hesitated to bring it up because I dont want to bring it to her awareness in hopes that things will just go back to normal on their own. If I point it out, I fear it makes me less of an individual to her and more of "another therapy client"... it'll become conscious and she'll possibly be more careful to keep the boundaries in place. I realize how irrational that sounds, but on some level, I fear it. I've worked hard to act like it doesnt bother me for the sake of keeping our relationship going. I suppose its getting to be time to bring it up though.
The other piece is, I dont want to bring this up and have it be further evidence to her of whatever current diagnosis or theory shes working on. It seems like everything I saw falls into that trap these days.
But uou make a good point. I'm sure her experience of my therapy is quite different than mine. I'm sure she does see her role differently in some ways than she used to. I wish I knew why. I came back to her wanting my same old T as in years past, but she's not the same old T at all.
I feel like I'm trying to tread water in the middle of a hurricane. In the pitch black, where you cant even see shore.
I imagine she is willing to discuss this openly. Shes always been open to discussing anything else I've mentioned in the past. Part of me is screaming "why bother" but I guess it's worth a shot. I may bring some of my posts in to session tomorrow as a jumping point.
Thanks for your thoughts Dinah... you always make me think!
Posted by yellowbird01 on June 22, 2009, at 19:53:21
In reply to Re: Caring (and lack of) from therapist » yellowbird01, posted by Kenya on June 22, 2009, at 13:31:40
Thanks Kenya for responding. :) It sounds like we've had very similar experiences in some ways. I've followed my T to several different offices over the years. My T also has always been available for me... even when I was seeing other Ts, if I needed to consult with her on something one time, she happily did it. She even offered to be my mentor professionally (I work in mental health), and forgo the therapy relationship. We talked about it but then she decided she couldnt ethically do that because of our history of doing therapy together. That was fine. But now, it all feels different. I always felt like she was always happy to see me. Now, not so much. Like you said, I feel like I get all standard, professional, textbook therapy responses. The personal touch is gone. It's very hard to describe. Also like you, I too am doing much better than I was a few years ago, so luckily it doesnt hurt like I imagine it may have a few years back.. but it still does hurt.
I'm going to try to talk to my T about it tomorrow. We'll see.
Posted by Daisym on June 22, 2009, at 19:55:48
In reply to Re: Caring (and lack of) from therapist » Dinah, posted by yellowbird01 on June 22, 2009, at 19:45:27
I think like all things, therapy evolves and changes. And when your therapist makes a change, it stings if you aren't ready to make the same one. I think there are stages to every therapy and the initial stage, however long it lasts, is to build an alliance with the client - to get them to trust you and to build a relationship that can stand some pushing. After this is done, more of the work emerges and it doesn't feel anywhere near as good.
But if done correctly, the relationship should deepend and so should the trust, not the other way around. She may be totally unaware that she is sending non-caring signals, she may think that you just "know" she cares now. A few months back I went through a really hurtful event with my therapist because he said something like, "you STILL don't trust me, after everything we've been through?" It was super hard for me to live up to this expectation, but we talked and talked and talked about what I thought he meant and what he thought he meant.
I also do think when one or the other person in the room is less engaged, that usually means there is stuff not being dealt with and not being talked about. Could it be that you are avoiding something, and/or spending energy to get strokes?
All this said, I do think it is important that you bring your feelings out in the open. You've invested a lot in this relationship and so has she, so at the very least, the relationship deserves an honest and open discussion.
Good luck,
Daisy
Posted by yellowbird01 on June 22, 2009, at 21:11:37
In reply to Re: Caring (and lack of) from therapist » yellowbird01, posted by Daisym on June 22, 2009, at 19:55:48
This post was hard for me to read... why? Because
I think you're right. And I dont want to admit it.(Daisy said: > Could it be that you are avoiding something, and/or spending energy to get strokes?)
I think it very well could. I think it's very possible that I dont even really need therapy anymore... I'm just sticking with it because its the one place where I've felt consistently listened to and cared about, in some sense anyway.
I've tried to say this to my T in the past, but she always tells me to have more empathy for myself and the things I struggle with etc. I dont know where the truth is.
Posted by yellowbird01 on June 23, 2009, at 20:56:27
In reply to Re: Caring (and lack of) from therapist » Daisym, posted by yellowbird01 on June 22, 2009, at 21:11:37
Well, I did go and see my T today. All these issues I've posted about didnt come up until the last 10 min or so of the session, so it didnt get far. I told her how I'm feeling like everything I say is made into a diagnosis or taken in a way that makes me look sicker, etc. Told her I feel like shes not listening/understanding. Told her how I used to be so comfortable with her etc and how it feels so different now. She said it's because we've never gone this deep before. Possible, I guess, but I dont think that's the full explanation. She tried to ask me why these issues have to be so black and white, which was frustrating because what I really want more than anything it to find the gray! I feel like she's forcing me into black/white and no matter how much I try to blur it, she wont let me. After a few minutes of this, my voice started to break and I was very close to tears, mostly tears of frustration, and she seemed to at least get how serious I am if nothing else. I told her that if this doesnt get better, I'm going to stop coming. A minute later, when we went to schedule, she asked me if I was coming as usual next week... not in a dismissive way though. She seemed to take me seriously when I said I'm close to being done. I hope. She said that she had a few thoughts as to why things are different but needed to think about it first before she put them out there. I dont know what to think about that. We'll see, I guess. As I left, I requested that she just please consider not only why I might be resisting in her mind, as has been her big focus, but also consider that maybe we have just miscommunicated and the things she feels so sure of just arent all accurate. I hope she really will.
(mild self harm trigger) I'm feeling bad. I'm having strong self-harm urges, which isnt something I really engage in anymore. I think I'm wanting to self-harm right now as a method of communicating to her how hard this is for me and how serious I really am. It's scary to me to even be having these urges because it has been a non-issue for me for so long. I know therapy stirs things up, but part of me feels like this cant possibly be healthy. I just dont know. (end of trigger)
I've read some interesting things in "In Session" (book) and online about gaslighting... basically, what occurs when someone makes a person doubt their own view of reality. I'm really relating to it right now. Going to read up a bit more. I can post an interesting link or two if anyone else is interested in this topic.
I have an appt Friday with another T who led the group in the hospital day program I did a few years back. The appt is to discuss the problems I'm having in therapy and with T and how best to handle it. I'm considering canceling it. At this point, I cant even clearly describe to myself what is happening or why it feels so bad. There's no way I'll be able to adequately describe it to anyone else.
Thank you all for listening. It really helps to have an outlet for this.
Posted by onceupon on June 23, 2009, at 21:52:26
In reply to Saw T today, posted by yellowbird01 on June 23, 2009, at 20:56:27
Hi yellowbird. I've been lurking for awhile now, too caught up in my own struggles to post, but your thread really spoke to me.
I don't know your whole story, but from what you described, I can see why you'd feel so frustrated! I may be off base here, but it feels like your therapist is the one polarizing the discussion - pulling it toward HER view of reality, rather than trying to understand yours. Perhaps she's moving more in that direction now.
In contrast to what you said about not being able to articulate your situation, I think you've articulated it quite well. It's an inherently confusing situation though, so it probably doesn't feel like it lends itself well to words. Could you possibly postpone your consultation session with the other therapist until you're able to discuss this more fully with your current therapist?
I'm curious about what your thoughts are behind thinking that you might actually be close to done with therapy. I ask because I have similar thoughts, but find myself getting drawn back in, over and over. Actually, I think I'm going to post a separate thread about my experience, because I don't want to hijack yours.
I'm also curious whether you ever talked with your therapist about wanting to, or feeling special, back when things felt "normal" with her. If so, could you possibly refer back to these earlier discussions? If not, what would it be like to talk with your therapist about the entirety of your experience - from previous times when you've seen her until now? I apologize if you've already talked about this somewhere else - I'm not at my most coherent right now.
Most of all, I hope that you're doing okay through all of this. I know the experience of gaslighting - not with my therapist, but with my husband - and it's awful, crazy making stuff. I'll be thinking about you.
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2009, at 23:38:48
In reply to Saw T today, posted by yellowbird01 on June 23, 2009, at 20:56:27
I'm glad you brought it up with her. It may take more than one discussion to understand what's going on.
Can you think of some concrete examples to give her if her thoughts don't mesh with your perceptions? Things that are purely factual so that she can't debate them?
Posted by yellowbird01 on June 24, 2009, at 19:53:22
In reply to Re: Saw T today » yellowbird01, posted by onceupon on June 23, 2009, at 21:52:26
Thanks onceupon and dinah for your thoughts. :) A lot of good points and good questions.
I'm feeling particularly unstable and bad right now.. really fighting some self-destructive urges. I'm not really able to write a good coherent response at the moment, but wanted to post briefly anyway. I'll respond more meaningfully tomorrow, or later tonight if I get it together...
Posted by onceupon on June 24, 2009, at 21:58:41
In reply to Re: Saw T today, posted by yellowbird01 on June 24, 2009, at 19:53:22
Fighting the good fight, it sounds like. Take care. Hope you find some relief. Still keeping you in my thoughts.
Posted by friesandcoke on July 18, 2009, at 20:48:58
In reply to Re: Caring (and lack of) from therapist » yellowbird01, posted by Kenya on June 22, 2009, at 13:31:40
i went through this with my old therapist a little bit. she seemed really into me and then as time went on, i saw i wasn't the focus of her world (which i somehow thought i was) and resented her for it. you know, if these vibes do not get any better....you guys need to talk about it and then you have to decide what you want to do about it. these feelings can destroy a therapeutic relationship. i hated my therapist at times towards the end when that caring feeling wasn't there and i would get little comments instead of a compassionate answer and such. "i feel your pain".
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