![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 42. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Voce on December 8, 2005, at 0:57:50
The past few days I've been having moments of intense longing and weakness. I think of my former (male) T all the time, remember certain spots on campus where I saw him. I can't call him, though. He's made that abundantly clear. I've written him once in the last few months and got a very cool, careful, short answer. So that door is obviously closed.
So today, in a moment of absolute weakness, I called my 2nd T, the female T who had to leave the job she was in when I was in treatment with her. She's now working at another school in town. I have not seen her since last Feb, but we established a connection while I was in treatment with her, and I liked her a lot.
She has been much more fluid with post-termination boundaries. She replies to my (bi-monthly) e-mails, and even discusses therapeutic material with me. So today, I picked up the phone after I got off work and dialed her number, fully expecting that since it was after 5pm, I would get her voicemail.
Well, she was in her office!! She seemed happy to hear from me, and mentioned that although she was meeting with a student, she would be happy to call me back. I tried to say goodbye and hang up but she kept asking me questions. But it sounds like she is going to call me back.....
I am scared, you guys. I don't want to be a bother to her, or put her in a position where she's going to have to shake me loose later. I don't want her to think that I'm dependent and needy. I am scared that she is going to be like T1, who gave me all the signals that it would be okay to call and write post-termination, and then abruptly changed the rules. I don't want to do anything wrong, or take advantage of her.
And I feel dumb for calling. Really, exceedingly dumb. I just wanted that connection so bad. Part of me thinks that since she is my last connection to therapy, and therefore my first T, who I was (am?) desperately in love with, that this is my way of trying to re-establish that connection with T1, although I can't imagine how.
I'm pathetic. I'm going to bed now. Tamar, can I share that 2nd bottle of wine with you???
Posted by orchid on December 8, 2005, at 1:36:27
In reply to Called my T, feel stupid now, posted by Voce on December 8, 2005, at 0:57:50
I think it is kind of ok to try to mentally close the relationship with your first T with another T who is available to you. I think I also did that with my second T, and even she said so herself, and she was ok with it. She said she was ok with me using her to close down mentally with my first T. And it really helped me do it also, since my termination with my first T ended up being very wishy-washy and abrupt.
IT is the same thing you are trying to do, and it isn't wrong. I hope that her continuing to support you will help you close down more with your first T.
Posted by allisonross on December 8, 2005, at 5:23:10
In reply to Called my T, feel stupid now, posted by Voce on December 8, 2005, at 0:57:50
Hi, Voce, sweetie: It is never dumb to call someone. You may feel that way, but it is only normal to want to connect.
What if you tell her exactly what you said in your post, about not wanting to take advantage, etc., etc....just be real. I always think authentic is the only way to be. Scary, at times, but necessary. That way, there is no misunderstanding.
And I TOTALLY relate to your being in love with your former t.
Feelings are facts...they are not right or wrong.....they just....are.
Hugs, Ally
P.S. T's know all about the feelings of neediness, connections, all of the human emotions, etc.....we shouldn't feel dumb or stupid about our needs.....they are normal; they are human...WE are all human. Give yourself a break, sweetie, and maybe we can share a lunch with a drink?! LOL
Posted by gardenergirl on December 8, 2005, at 5:55:49
In reply to Called my T, feel stupid now, posted by Voce on December 8, 2005, at 0:57:50
Hi Voce,
There is no dumb or stupid in therapy. None at all. Just like there is no dumb question.I'm glad T2 was responsive. It sounds like she felt the connection you did. And it does sound like she will call you.
You know the standard line...if you are worried that comminicating with her might get out of hand or that she will abruptly change the rules, try to tell her that. It's not a dumb feeling or worry. And it's not dumb to want to connect with someone who you know cares about you. Heck, we all need that, and it's actually very adaptive of you to take steps to fill that need.
Take care,
gg
Posted by Tamar on December 8, 2005, at 6:50:07
In reply to Called my T, feel stupid now, posted by Voce on December 8, 2005, at 0:57:50
> The past few days I've been having moments of intense longing and weakness. I think of my former (male) T all the time, remember certain spots on campus where I saw him. I can't call him, though. He's made that abundantly clear. I've written him once in the last few months and got a very cool, careful, short answer. So that door is obviously closed.
I’m sorry he isn’t more forthcoming. I suppose he doesn’t want to hurt you, but of course it’s painful in any case.
> Well, she was in her office!! She seemed happy to hear from me, and mentioned that although she was meeting with a student, she would be happy to call me back. I tried to say goodbye and hang up but she kept asking me questions. But it sounds like she is going to call me back.....
I’m so glad that she was happy to hear from you! And that she said she would call you back. I don’t think it was at all weak of you to call her; on the contrary, I think that took a lot of courage.
> I am scared, you guys. I don't want to be a bother to her, or put her in a position where she's going to have to shake me loose later. I don't want her to think that I'm dependent and needy. I am scared that she is going to be like T1, who gave me all the signals that it would be okay to call and write post-termination, and then abruptly changed the rules. I don't want to do anything wrong, or take advantage of her.
I think I’d say: be up front with her. Tell her what your worries are. Then she’ll be able to tell you exactly what you can expect from her. And then you’ll know and you won’t have to try to guess.
> And I feel dumb for calling. Really, exceedingly dumb. I just wanted that connection so bad. Part of me thinks that since she is my last connection to therapy, and therefore my first T, who I was (am?) desperately in love with, that this is my way of trying to re-establish that connection with T1, although I can't imagine how.
You are definitely not dumb. You needed to reach out and you did. I don’t see anything dumb there. And yes, I can imagine that calling her was like trying to re-establish the connection with T1. That makes sense.
> I'm pathetic. I'm going to bed now. Tamar, can I share that 2nd bottle of wine with you???
You can share the wine; of course. But you’re not pathetic.
I hope she calls you soon.
Tamar
Posted by happyflower on December 8, 2005, at 10:09:10
In reply to Not stupid » Voce, posted by Tamar on December 8, 2005, at 6:50:07
You know I did the exact same thing a few weeks ago. I just wanted to connect with him, I was struggling with missing him so much since we started to space our session a month a part. I never called him before just to connect. I was worried about him too since I didn't see him at the gym. But instead of getting him, I got his machine, and left a pretty dumb sounding message on it to call me back. I even said, you don't HAVE to call me back, but I would like you to. I said I just wanted to touch base. I sounded like such an idiot, I even said that too on the machine.
But he called me back and was very nice and it seemed like he understood that I just wanted to connect with him. Then he asked me if I felt better since hearing his voice, I said yes as always. Then I said "it's pretty pathadic, huh."So it is okay to reach out, its okay to miss them, so just relax and know you aren't the only one who has done this! :)
Posted by Shortelise on December 8, 2005, at 13:06:17
In reply to Called my T, feel stupid now, posted by Voce on December 8, 2005, at 0:57:50
Could you talk with her about it? Tell her how much it means to you, all the feelings you wrote to us?
Voce, please be kind to yourself.
I send you a warm hug, dear Voce. If I were that T, I would welcome your calls, I would be so glad that you called; I would feel privileged to be trusted by you.
ShortE
Posted by muffled on December 8, 2005, at 13:11:36
In reply to Re: Not stupid, posted by happyflower on December 8, 2005, at 10:09:10
Sometimes I (I'd like to blame it on the kid, but I not 100% sure) anyhow sometimes I call my T office just to hear the very curt short message on the machine. I never leave a message, just want that little bit of voice. God now that IS MAJORLY pitiful. You got guts. So don't feel bad.
Ugh, I just thot, I hope they don't got call display!??? Aghhh. Sometimes I call 2-3x (its a VERY short message!)
There, now you can extort me for money over this.
Sh*t.
Muffled
Posted by fairywings on December 8, 2005, at 13:40:22
In reply to Called my T, feel stupid now, posted by Voce on December 8, 2005, at 0:57:50
I'm glad she was happy to hear from you. I hope you can tell her how you feel, and about your worries. You'll probably feel validated. It's too bad T1 has handled things in such a way that you're left feeling so bad. That's got to hurt terribly.
Hugs,
fw
Posted by 10derHeart on December 8, 2005, at 13:55:11
In reply to Called my T, feel stupid now, posted by Voce on December 8, 2005, at 0:57:50
I'm really glad you called her. Makes sense to me both rationally AND emotionally (whoo-hoo, both of those working together for once!)
As I go along this similar therapy-journey with you and everyone else, I'm realizing no matter HOW pathetic, stupid, needy or weird we feel or think we are at certain points, that making the connection, or trying our best to connect and reconnect (even when some Ts aren't up to it... :-( ), is pretty much *never* a mistake, bad, wrong or unhealthy.
Even when the response or lack thereof hurts for a while. Even then.
But the chance someone will respond like your T2 just did seems worth it.
I mean, the opposite can't be so good right? At least, not in the long term. Endless rumination, wondering what they'd say, worrying, isolating, denying your real feelings, and not doing anything about it? Most of us find ourselves in that space for longer or shorter periods (nothing wrong with that, either, perfectly human) but we then seem to feel pretty relieved, powerful in a good way and more settled once we DO reach out to them.
Keep going, Voce. Your instincts were/are good and you know what you need and what you can tolerate along the way to try to get it. Sounds like this T. have earned the benefit of the doubt, too. Try and give that to her.
Big hugs and encouragement from me!! ((Voce))
Posted by one woman cine on December 8, 2005, at 13:56:33
In reply to Called my T, feel stupid now, posted by Voce on December 8, 2005, at 0:57:50
I can relate to having a therapist who changes the rules. Things were unpredictable and it became even harder to trust anyone after that.
Are you in therapy now? A good therapist can really undo "bad" therapy & give you a sense of validation. It did for me. Although I'm still furious & it has helped me immensely (!) to hear someone say that what I'm feeling isn't too "off base" & pretty normal in fact. & her ability to look at things & take care of boundaries makes me realize what I was missing the entire time before.
Maybe, if you aren't in therapy, (I don't know, are you?) tentatively putting your toes in the "therapy waters" (so to speak) is really healthy and proactive, despite the treatment by T1. & I think shows a great deal of courage.
Even if you have terminated with T2, I think it's good to use her as resource. Don't ever feel bad about advocating for yourself, which it sounds like you are doing. Maybe she could be helpful in getting you a referral to a few therapists.
Posted by fallsfall on December 8, 2005, at 15:47:49
In reply to Hey Voce you don't know stupid.., posted by muffled on December 8, 2005, at 13:11:36
Muffled,
You mean some people *DON'T* call their therapist's answering machines just to hear their voice???
Posted by muffled on December 8, 2005, at 16:02:45
In reply to ??? » muffled, posted by fallsfall on December 8, 2005, at 15:47:49
Posted by Voce on December 8, 2005, at 16:44:11
In reply to Called my T, feel stupid now, posted by Voce on December 8, 2005, at 0:57:50
You are all so wonderful. I am truly humbled by how you have all rallied around me.
When she calls me back I am going to do my best to tell her how scared I am, and how I need some sort of definition to our quasi-relationship. Or if there won't be any definition, then I need to know that the rug won't get yanked out from under me.
But in the meantime, I reall appreciate how you've all validated me. I just really needed that encouragement. I need to be reminded that it's okay to have needs because I sometimes get this Stepford mentality that I can't feel anything, or need anything. I am only allowed to give.
And then there's the part of me that needs an "atta girl" once in awhile. Because I sure never got that when I was growing up, and I discovered that I would move heaven and earth for the man who would say that to me. T1 did all the time. And even though T2 is a woman, I think getting that validation through her is kind of like channeling T1.
Thank you for telling me that I'm brave. I needed that too.
Posted by 10derHeart on December 8, 2005, at 17:31:04
In reply to ??? » muffled, posted by fallsfall on December 8, 2005, at 15:47:49
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2005, at 17:40:24
In reply to Hey Voce you don't know stupid.., posted by muffled on December 8, 2005, at 13:11:36
So much so that he no longer gets disturbed if I call him and don't leave a message, even multiple times.
Well, I probably don't do it *all* the time anymore. But I used to. :)
Posted by 10derHeart on December 8, 2005, at 18:22:13
In reply to I do it all the time » muffled, posted by Dinah on December 8, 2005, at 17:40:24
<grin>
Me, too. Probably not all the time, either. But enough, still.
Used to *always* use the "hide ID" option on my cell so his system wouldn't identify who the heck was calling and leaving no messages at all hours of the day and night.
But recently (after our email debacle), I don't even care if he knows any more.
After all, I told him weeks ago that I do it. Just like I later told him (though I can hardly choke this out without a total meltdown) that just seeing his name in my email Inbox - without ever even opening/reading the actual message - used to calm me down and make me feel soooo good. He responded to both by saying it was "almost scary" to be that important to anyone, but that he was honored and took his responsibility for those strong emotions very seriously.
Now that he knows, at least I get to complain and tease him when he changes the outgoing message to something that I don't like the sound of, or is just too short.
My T. definitely has to take a lot of guff from me.
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2005, at 18:27:52
In reply to Re: I do it all the time » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on December 8, 2005, at 18:22:13
lol.
Mine too.
Funny you should mention that moment. Today I almost told my therapist about your therapist saying it was "almost scary". Although admittedly my therapist seems to have gotten over the fear completely with time. rofl. Exposure therapy!
Posted by daisym on December 9, 2005, at 10:14:24
In reply to Empowerment, posted by Voce on December 8, 2005, at 16:44:11
I hope she calls you back soon. It does sound like she was glad to hear from you. That in itself should take away some of your angst. But I do understand that "but I shouldn't need this" stuff. I'm glad you allowed yourself to call.
The whole idea of being interdependent is a tough one because I think for those of us who were trained to believe that being completely independent was the goal, any kind of dependency needs feels bad. And yet, what would we say to anyone else having a bad day, or needing some TLC? It actually shows a tremendous amount of strength that you reached out for what you needed. That is truly very hard. Good for you!
Hang in there. Let us know what happens.
Posted by one woman cine on December 9, 2005, at 10:31:51
In reply to Re: Empowerment » Voce, posted by daisym on December 9, 2005, at 10:14:24
Yeah, I think interdependence is a goal for in therapy, to be an authentic independent individual, but one who can also get her needs met.
There's nothing wrong with that.
PS, I hope you are feeling better.
Posted by happyflower on December 9, 2005, at 11:33:55
In reply to Re: Empowerment » daisym, posted by one woman cine on December 9, 2005, at 10:31:51
Posted by Voce on December 9, 2005, at 13:00:05
In reply to DId your T call you back yet? ( Voce) (nm), posted by happyflower on December 9, 2005, at 11:33:55
Not yet, she said perhaps during lunch today. But if I have lunch with my fiance, that won't really work. She has been really good in the past about leaving her number and what times would be good to call HER back. If she calls me back, chances are I would have the courage to call her back if she doesn't catch me today.
Posted by muffled on December 9, 2005, at 14:20:15
In reply to Re: DId your T call you back yet? » happyflower, posted by Voce on December 9, 2005, at 13:00:05
I phoned my T macine today and she ANSWERED!!!GACK!!!I hung up.
Oh Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!
Posted by happyflower on December 9, 2005, at 14:27:07
In reply to Good luck Voce!!!, posted by muffled on December 9, 2005, at 14:20:15
> I phoned my T macine today and she ANSWERED!!!GACK!!!I hung up.
> Oh Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!
>Oh Muffy!!!!!
I wonder what T's think when all of us clients hang up on them! LOL It is kinda of funny, does she have caller ID? I wonder what she says under her breath, that Muffy, what is she up to now! LOL
Posted by Voce on December 11, 2005, at 21:19:45
In reply to Re: Good luck Voce!!! » muffled, posted by happyflower on December 9, 2005, at 14:27:07
But then again I did really downplay my need to talk to her. I told her to just call me whenever it was convenient for her. So she may do so next week.
I just really want to go TALK to her in person. I have 2 issues that are bothering me, both about my upcoming marriage. One sexual, one familial (is that the right word?) She is the only one I could ever dream of talking to about the sexual issue. I am going to ask if I can stop by and see her perhaps...just to talk a little...and I will offer to pay her.
But I think making that connection on Thursday night was just what I needed to make it through the weekend, even if we didn't talk a whole lot.
I'm also agonizing over whether or not to send ex male T a Christmas card. I bought one, but I bought a cheap one so that if I don't send it, it's no big loss!!!
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.