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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by daisym on January 9, 2006, at 19:39:07
My session today:
T - "why is it so hard to have these feelings for me?"
Me - "because I feel needy and jealous and a bunch of other things that I don't typically feel and I sure as h*ll don't say out loud!"
T - "You sound angry. No wonder you don't want these feelings. What is so scary about your anger?"
Me - "Anger has the potential to turn a person into a monster. And I'm terrified of the intensity of it. Because it feels just as intense as my caring feelings for you. I'm afraid that if I can love you, maybe I can hate you too."
T - "That seems like an important thing to find out. To learn that, yes, you can hate someone temporarily and but then the love will come back. Anger is just a part of you, it won't become all of you. You aren't your dad."
So -- he wants to see some of my writings where I'm angry -- especially at him. And I want to show him a few pages, but I don't want to hurt his feelings. (Or do I? Is this part of the anger?) How can I do this and still guarantee that he won't change how he is with me? Or worse, tell me he doesn't want to work with me anymore?
I'm scared and confused tonight.
Posted by fallsfall on January 9, 2006, at 19:47:19
In reply to Talking about anger, posted by daisym on January 9, 2006, at 19:39:07
This is when you can learn that if you are angry at someone that it doesn't (necessarily) hurt the other person, and that the other person won't (necessarily) leave you.
This is one of those times when you have to trust that he knows what he's doing, and take that leap. Show him your writing - even though it is really scary to do that. Trust him.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 9, 2006, at 23:58:09
In reply to Re: Talking about anger » daisym, posted by fallsfall on January 9, 2006, at 19:47:19
Hi Daisy,
I know anger is scary. And some folks do get quite hurt by another person's anger.
But I also think that hearing another person's authentic feelings can be okay. In my own experience, my husband has been afraid to express his anger to me, partly because he fears he couldn't control it if it got "away from him", and partly because he fears my feelings will be hurt. When he finally did express some anger recently, I didn't feel hurt. It felt okay, and it led to us talking about the situation until we both felt better about it.
I think your T will value hearing your authentic feelings. And you might be surprised to feel how light and free it can be to express anger you've been holding back.
Your relationship is strong enough and secure enough that anger will not destroy it. I'm certain of that. Can you hold onto a tiny bit of my confidence in you and in your T?
What we learned about anger in childhood from "not good enough" parents is not all there is to anger. It's not the only way. But I understand it's scary to think about and to try out different ways.
(((((daisy)))))
gg
Posted by All Done on January 10, 2006, at 0:26:24
In reply to Talking about anger, posted by daisym on January 9, 2006, at 19:39:07
> How can I do this and still guarantee that he won't change how he is with me? Or worse, tell me he doesn't want to work with me anymore?
>
> I'm scared and confused tonight.(((Daisy))),
I'm sorry you're feeling scared and confused. I understand where you're coming from, though.
I wish I could address all of your questions and have the perfect answers for you. The one thing I can say with a fair amount of certainty is that your T will not say he doesn't want to work with you anymore if you express anger toward him. From everything you've told us, the two of you have built a pretty strong therapeutic relationship. Plus, I'm guessing your T has been and is expecting some anger to be directed at him at some point. He can handle it. He's good at what he does.
Is there a guarantee he won't change how he is with you? Nope. But...don't you feel your relationship has been evolving since day one? It's ever changing for both of you. And this is part of that process. One of the points in my therapy that brought me a bit closer to my T was when I was angry with him over that insurance mess. We argued. I believe we were both mad (perhaps more me at him than him at me), but I found that he won't drop me like a hot potato just because I express some anger. I admired the way we both handled the situation and it helped me to trust him even more.
Now, I realize the insurance matter made me angry but kind of just on the surface. I'm upset with him for something that goes a bit deeper right now and I am nervous about telling him I'm mad. I understand how hard it is.
But I'll tell my T, if you tell yours. And we can go shoe shopping afterwards. :)
Laurie
Posted by fairywings on January 10, 2006, at 8:20:52
In reply to Talking about anger, posted by daisym on January 9, 2006, at 19:39:07
Maybe he wants to show you that it's okay to be angry with him, and important for you to see that when you express it he's not going to abandon you. Maybe he thinks that writing about your anger helps to shake off some of the fearful aspects of it. Seems your relationship with him is strong enough to bear most anything.
fw
Posted by annierose on January 10, 2006, at 8:58:12
In reply to Re: Talking about anger » daisym, posted by fairywings on January 10, 2006, at 8:20:52
Hi Daisy -
I haven't been around much because I've been feeling so vulnerable around this exact issue as well. I'll share my experience with anger in hopes it will give you confidence to share yours with your T as well.
Last Friday I told my T that when I left her office on Thursday, I hated her. I hated her questions, her responses, etc. Quietly she replied, "I knew you left upset, I'm glad you shared these feelings with me. It's important not to brush those feelings under the carpet." I quickly replied, "See, that pisses me off too. That kind of response. I left angry on Thursday, and here it is 24 hours later, I'm sharing that, and you're telling me not to brush it under the carpet. I am sharing." Then she told me that no matter what she says or how she replies I want to see her as critical and disapproving, even though nothing could be further from the truth. That I expect people to react that way. When in fact, she was trying to be encouraging.
We talked and talked and I do see what she is saying. It feels right. I'm already preparing a defense before someone talks to me.
We talked a lot about what that feels like.
I was shocked that the word "hate" came out of my mouth as I spoke. I hadn't planned to say that, or even thought it consciously. She wasn't mad at me or even surprised. She still likes me. It was okay. I know I have lots of work ahead in this area. Anger is important work.
Keep sharing. Your T is awesome and he will guide you through. He will hold your hand and gently guide you along.
Annie
Posted by fallsfall on January 10, 2006, at 11:33:03
In reply to Re: Talking about anger » fairywings, posted by annierose on January 10, 2006, at 8:58:12
What important work, Annierose.
I can see how she was being supportive "It's important not to brush those feelings under the carpet" - meaning that what you were saying was good because you weren't brushing them under the carpet.
I can see how you saw it as being critical "It's important not to brush those feelings under the carpet" - correcting you for brushing them under the carpet.
The same words. It just depends on what your expectations are how you will hear them.
I have that critical filter on ALL the time. So much so that he has started saying things like "You need to talk about those things. - like you are doing now". Maybe some day he won't have to qualify things so much.
These expectations that we have - these filters - are what transference is all about. For me, my dad was always very demanding - I never did well enough to suit him. So the things that he said *were* criticisms. Because I learned that such statements were going to be criticisms, now I *expect* such statements to be criticisms. Sort of like I'm programmed to hear them as criticisms. That is what transference is all about. I assume that my therapist has the same motivations that my dad had. Fortunately, he doesn't!
Thanks for the clear example. It is easier to understand these things sometimes if we look at someone else!
Posted by happyflower on January 10, 2006, at 12:54:40
In reply to Talking about anger, posted by daisym on January 9, 2006, at 19:39:07
This was a topic for my therapy this week. You have all seen how mad I was at my T . I really did have good reasons, one was a miscommunication, and one was something negative that my T was doing, that wasn't about me , but effected me grately. Most of my last session was about my anger. I probably overreacted to this stuff due to the bad side effects I was having. But I had to talk about it with my T. I feel better now. He didn't leave me or I didn't leave him. I feel like I have grown through sharing him my anger. I just need to be careful in venting it. Now If I can just share ALL my feelings. Now that will a serious therapy day! LOL Maybe the next one.
I am sure your T can handle your anger. My T said it didn't effect him personally, but I don't believe him totally. I think a lot of T's get anger thrown at them, maybe that is why they have to be thick skinned. You and your T, dasiy have come a long way, and he will not leave you if you get angry with him. ((((((((((daisy)))))))))
Posted by littleone on January 10, 2006, at 14:40:30
In reply to Talking about anger, posted by daisym on January 9, 2006, at 19:39:07
For some of us, anger is very difficult.
Showing him your angry writings is a very good start. It allows the anger to be brought up and talked about without the feelings being right there with you both which would probably be too threatening to start with.
Just recently my T was apologising very gently to me for something and I felt this huge ball of anger rush up and almost overwhelm me. It almost spewed out all over him, but I was able to hold it in and I pulled away from him instead.
I wrote about it for him and in that I realised that it would be a sign of progress if I could actually let the anger out at him instead of pulling away. And I asked him if he was worried that he knows that one day that intensely vile hatred was going to spew out at him.
He was so good about it. He *wants* to see my anger. He's not afraid of it at all. He never takes his clients' anger personally. It's always something valuable to work with. He really would love to see me let that vile rage out. At him.
And we all know you have the best T daisy :) There's no way he'll let you down or kick you out over this. I know your T would love to see your anger/rage as well. I bet he would even be proud of you for taking such a big step.
But that is a big step (to actually let it out) and you don't have to take that step today. You just need to take a smaller step of showing him what you wrote when you were angry. Still very tough, but do-able.
Your anger won't change how he feels about you. It won't change how he acts with you. It won't drive him away. He won't kick you out. He won't get angry back. He won't punish you. It won't hurt his feelings.
What it *will* do is help you a lot.
Posted by daisym on January 10, 2006, at 15:18:56
In reply to Re: Talking about anger » daisym, posted by fallsfall on January 9, 2006, at 19:47:19
I trust him but I'm terrified of what he'll think seeing this "bad" side of me. It is deeply ingrained that you keep those selfish thoughts hidden and act pleasant and accepting.
I took in three different pieces. One at my mother, one at my husband and one about therapy and him.
He had me read them. He had me feel them. He said he could feel my anger and it was justified. And he said we needed to process some of the specifics. We didn't have enough time. But as I was leaving he told me not to freak out, it was OK. Too late...
Posted by daisym on January 10, 2006, at 15:24:40
In reply to Re: Talking about anger, posted by gardenergirl on January 9, 2006, at 23:58:09
Anger is hard. But anger tangled up with embarrassment is torture. The journal page I read about him contained lots of little missteps and tiny hurts I'd felt from him. I shared the page because I wanted him to know just how intense my attachment gets and how irrational I feel about some things. I wrote that I wish I could ask him if he cares about me. I wish he would tell me. He looked really surprised and said "don't you know how much I care about you?" And I had to say, "not always. Sometimes I think you just have to act like you do." And I said I was sorry I was being so nonappreciative and such a pain.
He shook that off and it was a good conversation. Too short. I still feel like a brat though.
Posted by daisym on January 10, 2006, at 15:30:01
In reply to Re: Talking about anger » daisym, posted by All Done on January 10, 2006, at 0:26:24
I told him so now you have to. Let's meet in Chicago to get those shoes.
I think even if you are expecting the anger, it is still hard to hear that someone has hurt feelings because of what you did, or didn't do. We did talk about expressing it more, especially here at home. It was easier to read the angry stuff about my mom and my husband than it was to read my stuff about him. I guess that is to be expected.
There is a lot to think about after today. But I'm glad I decided to not wait. Thanks for the support.
Posted by daisym on January 10, 2006, at 15:33:56
In reply to Re: Talking about anger » daisym, posted by fairywings on January 10, 2006, at 8:20:52
I think you are right, he wants the writings to help me really let him know what is going on. We talked about talking about it before we actually talked about it. It just felt like my reactions were so petty, now that the emotions have dissipated. I wish everything in therapy wasn't so loaded. In no other place can I see myself saying, "I want to be special." Makes me cringe.
Posted by daisym on January 10, 2006, at 15:41:45
In reply to Re: Talking about anger » fairywings, posted by annierose on January 10, 2006, at 8:58:12
Thank you for sharing your session Annie. That really took guts on your part. I think I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm so sure that someone "doesn't mean to" that when I feel hurt or something feels like a criticism, I look to myself and ask why am I reacting this way? My therapist tells me it is a way of maintaining control. I can see that this is true. I'm planning THEIR defense for them. I did that a lot today. "yes, I'm mad at my mom, but she was a single mother and had a lot on her plate" immediately negating my own experience.
We talked about the word hate today a lot. It is all over my writings but I rarely use it out loud. I don't let me kids use it, I think it is such a powerful word. It feels like fury itself tied up in letters for me. He said it is a very good word and I shouldn't be afraid of it. That you can hate the "thing" and not the person. I'll have to think about that concept.
Posted by daisym on January 10, 2006, at 15:44:57
In reply to Re: Talking about anger, posted by happyflower on January 10, 2006, at 12:54:40
You do a much better job of expressing yourself in the moment than I do. I'm glad you were able to talk so frankly about what you've been feeling about him. Such an emotional roller-coaster.
My relationship with my therapist is strong yet it feels like there are these fragile places that could cave the whole thing in. He said it is an ongoing work in progress so it will change and adjust and feel good and bad. It is hard to take that in. It isn't what I'm use to.
Posted by daisym on January 10, 2006, at 15:50:58
In reply to Re: Talking about anger » daisym, posted by littleone on January 10, 2006, at 14:40:30
Thank you for encouraging baby steps. I think that is what we did today. But in some ways it seemed very adolescent to me, "this is what you did wrong, and this, and this." Aren't we supposed to own our reactions and protect our own selves from hurt?
I think you are right, our therapists would love to see our rage and anger But I can't picture me ever raging, at least not out loud. I rage pretty well on the page. I do think some of this is more justified than the rest of it. It seems OK to be mad at my mother, but not my husband and not my therapist. Yes, I know, I'm judging myself again.
The hardest part about feeling these feelings is not knowing what to do with them. I keep thinking about Antigua and her bat. Maybe I need to get one.
Posted by happyflower on January 10, 2006, at 17:20:15
In reply to Re: Talking about anger » All Done, posted by daisym on January 10, 2006, at 15:30:01
> I told him so now you have to. Let's meet in Chicago to get those shoes.
>
Can I tag along? I am only 2 1/2 hours away using the South Shore! :)
Posted by happyflower on January 10, 2006, at 17:31:27
In reply to Re: Talking about anger » happyflower, posted by daisym on January 10, 2006, at 15:44:57
> You do a much better job of expressing yourself in the moment than I do. I'm glad you were able to talk so frankly about what you've been feeling about him. Such an emotional roller-coaster.
Yeah, it was a roller coaster. I need to bring up some stuff, but first I needed just to connect with him. But I feel I also feel I have some fragile places too and it is scary. I just want to progress, not regress. So what, am I trying to be a perfect client? Well maybe, but I blew that theory out of the water when I called him a big jerk last week. LOL Stay with it, just talking about anger is a big step I think. I think anger is scary, it is like being out of control. It is very hard to express anger in a good way.
I even laughed at my T once at the gym when he had problems with a piece of equipment, and he got all mad and it looked like he threw a mini tantrum. LOL I told him about it this week seeing it, and he said well you should see when I am really mad. LOL I think he was very surprised that I noticed this. So I do think my T is a hot headed guy.(oh, yeah, he is just hot! lol) So I think it is a good thing to discuss, but I think most people have trouble dealing with anger on either end of it.
> My relationship with my therapist is strong yet it feels like there are these fragile places that could cave the whole thing in. He said it is an ongoing work in progress so it will change and adjust and feel good and bad. It is hard to take that in. It isn't what I'm use to.
Posted by annierose on January 10, 2006, at 17:46:08
In reply to Re: Talking about anger » annierose, posted by fallsfall on January 10, 2006, at 11:33:03
Thank you for your support. I can see that you understand what I mean, what I'm experiencing. Our built-in filters do not do us justice sometimes. On the other hand, they will pick out those people who are truly horrid and mean spirited.
>>>"You need to talk about those things. - like you are doing now".<<<
Had to smile. My T says, "I can see what you are trying to (xyz, etc). And that is not meant as a criticism. Just an observation."
Our T's. We are so lucky to have them.
Posted by annierose on January 10, 2006, at 17:52:46
In reply to Re: Talking about anger » annierose, posted by daisym on January 10, 2006, at 15:41:45
That is very interesting how the end result is sometimes the same, but what we feel inside is totally different.
Also, I never knew your mother was a single mom. I don't know how I missed that. How old were you when your parents divorced?
Sharing your writings is very important, especially the feelings about him, it's harder to do because it makes you more vulnerable. Your T reminds me of mine when he told you, "Don't you know I care?" Of course he does!! And he thinks about you outside of office hours too, "How can I get Daisy to trust me more?"
And I agree, I don't like the word HATE either. My little hairs stick straight up on the back of my neck when my children say it. But don't moms get to break the rules?
Posted by Dinah on January 10, 2006, at 18:33:59
In reply to Talking about anger, posted by daisym on January 9, 2006, at 19:39:07
That's been a major part of our work. Letting me know it's ok for me to get angry with others, and others to be angry with me. That it won't mean that the relationship will end or deteriorate. That people can actually be angry and get over it.
I'm not sure if I've learned that lesson all that well yet. I still put my hands over my ears and whimper when he's angry. And I still hate to even admit to myself when I'm angry.
I guess it's a work in progress.
Posted by fairywings on January 11, 2006, at 10:53:49
In reply to Re: Talking about anger » fairywings, posted by daisym on January 10, 2006, at 15:33:56
> > We talked about talking about it before we actually talked about it.
(((daisy))) ; )
>>>It just felt like my reactions were so petty, now that the emotions have dissipated. I wish everything in therapy wasn't so loaded. In no other place can I see myself saying, "I want to be special." Makes me cringe.
I know exactly what you're saying here.
fw
Posted by littleone on January 12, 2006, at 23:39:34
In reply to Re: Talking about anger » gardenergirl, posted by daisym on January 10, 2006, at 15:24:40
> I wrote that I wish I could ask him if he cares about me.
You can ask him. That's not breaking the rules. It's just hard to do. Because you never *know* what the response will be. But you are allowed to ask him.
Posted by littleone on January 13, 2006, at 0:00:38
In reply to Re: Talking about anger » littleone, posted by daisym on January 10, 2006, at 15:50:58
> But in some ways it seemed very adolescent to me, "this is what you did wrong, and this, and this."
I don't know about you, but I have a lot of people problems. So when I tell him that he did this and this and this wrong, it gives him a chance to talk about it which helps me understand other people a little better. It also helps to demonstrate false beliefs I may have.
But there's a much bigger thing with this. My T has explained to me that there are three types of thinking: concrete, functional and abstract. For example, if you were describing a cow, concrete thinking would be "it has four legs and a tail" (stuff you can see), functional thinking would be "it eats grass and produces milk" (stuff it does) and abstract thinking is "it's an animal/mammal" (I think this is more conceptional ideas stuff). Little kids can only think concrete thoughts and as you get older you progress to functional and abstract thoughts as well.
So when you point out that your T did this and this, that is probably concrete thinking and at a guess I would say it is a younger part of you thinking it. And I'm not sure, but I think a part of therapy is to help the younger parts progress to learn functional and abstract thinking.
But I have no idea how that is supposed to happen.
> Aren't we supposed to own our reactions and protect our own selves from hurt?
I don't think I understand what you mean by this. Can you explain it more?
> I think you are right, our therapists would love to see our rage and anger But I can't picture me ever raging, at least not out loud. I rage pretty well on the page.
When you started therapy, could you picture yourself bawling in front of your T or clinging desperately to his talisman? If you can rage on paper, the rage is there inside you. I don't know if you have to "rage" at your T to progress, but I do think you'll have to get angry at him. And probably more than once. I guess it would be often enough to learn that it's not the monsterously horrid emotion we currently think it is.
> The hardest part about feeling these feelings is not knowing what to do with them. I keep thinking about Antigua and her bat. Maybe I need to get one.
My T suggested hanging a rug over the clothes line or fence and hitting it with something. I never did though. Neighbours. Plus I think that hitting something in a rage is a bit too triggering for me.
Posted by antigua on January 13, 2006, at 8:15:33
In reply to Re: Talking about anger » daisym, posted by littleone on January 13, 2006, at 0:00:38
I found beating a wire fence with a soft baseball bat was very useful. Made my arm sore, but it helped. I walked over to an empty playground, but I did watch out for people so that someone wouldn't call the police!
Surprisingly, it wasn't triggering; it was calming.
best,
antigua
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