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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on August 5, 2008, at 21:31:07
I hadn't meant to. And I squished it in the last ten minutes. And perhaps I was careful about the wording. I certainly didn't use the words "glow" or "bliss".
But I told him that I felt insecure because his crisis was over, and he was happy, but that he had been thinking of moving, so how can I ever trust him completely? I didn't really understand what he said. I never do when we talk about this. Something about me trusting that he isn't planning to terminate me, but also knowing that things are constantly changing. So I can trust him completely, but also know that things can change. Which to me is totally contradictory. I don't understand. He seems to. But I don't.
And I told him that it bothered me when he talked about me in the very positive way that he did. That it bothered me that he seemed to believe I had qualities I didn't have. And how I was afraid that if he believed something untrue about me, that he would be angry when he realized the truth. He said that he completely believed that he was telling the truth, and he was invested in my believing it too. But that he wasn't invested in such a way that he would be disappointed with me if I didn't live up to his expectations. But that if he thought I wasn't living up to my potential, then he might be disappointed.
I'm a bit confused.
He did say one thing that I understood and that made me feel a little bit happy. When I said that I always considered that our relationship was based on the fact that he liked me despite my personal qualities, he laughed and said he'd never put it that way. When I pointed out that "I'd never put it that way" didn't necessarily mean it wasn't true, he said he wouldn't put it that way because he'd never think that, which must mean that he didn't think that was true. I liked that he didn't just flat out deny it. I liked that he thought about it.
I guess part of why I'm confused is that I only talked about it in the last ten minutes. But part of it may also be because I never understand these things. I don't think I'll ever understand how you can trust something that might change. If it can change, then by definition it is untrustworthy.
Posted by Daisym on August 6, 2008, at 0:39:39
In reply to Talked to him about everything, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2008, at 21:31:07
I talked to my therapist about this today - the trust thing and how hard and weird the therapy relationship is. It has been on my mind a lot. I said that while I trust him with my "stuff" I couldn't completely trust that he will never hurt me by ending therapy before I'm ready. I trust that he wouldn't do it intentionally, but things do change and there are possibilities that could occur that neither of us anticipate. And I said that while I truly wished him the best, and I would want him to make decisions based on his best interest and his family's, I couldn't help but add in that I also wanted him to consider how any change would effect me.
For example - I told him if he won the lottery, I'd be thrilled for him. But I'd also want him to keep seeing me - so he wouldn't be allowed to quit working. Selfish, I know.
He said that perhaps we had to just acknowledge the unknowns and the undeniable truth that much of the world is out of our control. He said, "people get yanked out of our lives all the time. But if we let that fear get in the way of caring about people, our lives would be very empty." And then he said that he could certainly see why, given my history, it would be harder for me to not always be watching for signs that he was leaving. And if anything changes, he promised he'd talk to me. And right now, nothing is changing. But still, he could see how hard it was. He didn't promise things would never change. And he also didn't promise that they would never end. He just agreed that the relationship was unique and difficult, but hopefully helpful and worth it.
So I guess maybe you can trust your therapist to be honest and as consistent as he can be And at the same time be honest with yourself that change can and will happen. The key would be to try and hold the anxiety about change and the unpredictabilities of life in check. We do this with our kids all the time, right? We know all the various accidents and dangers that the world has and yet we still have to suspend those possibilities or we couldn't function.
I think you'll just need some time for things to feel safe again. Hopefully talking about it helped, at least a little.
Posted by Phillipa on August 6, 2008, at 0:49:09
In reply to Talked to him about everything, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2008, at 21:31:07
Dinah so he was thinking of moving you were right. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 0:58:01
In reply to Re: Talked to him about everything, posted by Daisym on August 6, 2008, at 0:39:39
I think you're right. We do have to put those things out of our minds, or we can't go on.
But when they're forcibly pushed into our awareness, it takes a while for the protective amnesia to return. Although I never have managed to forget T3's haunting words "but you will never forget that he *did* do it".
I guess I've made the choice that caring is worth the risk. If he wins the lottery, though, he is definitely going to have to keep seeing me.
Did you see the Monk episode where Dr. Kroger and he were talking about what they'd do with that much money. Monk said he'd hire Dr. Kroger full time and build him a house next to his so he could see him all the time. Dr. Kroger said if he won he'd buy a desert island with no phones and no docks. Monk paused and said "May the best man win."
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 1:03:51
In reply to Re: Talked to him about everything » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on August 6, 2008, at 0:49:09
He can't hide anything from me.
He said today that he could either keep things from me, or I would have to live with the uncertainty of knowing what was going on. I glumly pointed out that he can't keep things from me. That he had tried to pretend everything was ok, and that he certainly had no intention of telling me he was considering moving. I'm not actually psychic, but I sure can read him like an open book.
I've even started to hear him not say something. I don't know what it is he's not saying of course. But even knowing someone is not saying something lets you know something of what they're thinking.
Posted by Annierose on August 6, 2008, at 7:51:57
In reply to Talked to him about everything, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2008, at 21:31:07
>>> he liked me despite my personal qualities, he laughed and said he'd never put it that way. When I pointed out that "I'd never put it that way" didn't necessarily mean it wasn't true, he said he wouldn't put it that way because he'd never think that, which must mean that he didn't think that was true. I liked that he didn't just flat out deny it. <<<
I don't agree with your logic here. Just because a person would never put a thought in a certain sentence sequence does not mean your thought is necessarily their truth. It's not the way they see the situation.
I hear you telling your therapist that this is how I am and this is how you must see me ... because it's the truth. I hear him saying, "I understand your point of view, and I can maybe I can see why you feel that way (based on your history), BUT it isn't how I see you."
This isn't the best of examples but it's illustrates (hopefully) what I'm trying to get across. (I've been sick for two weeks - mono - so my brain synapses are running slow). A person suffering from aneroxia is convinced that they are fat and need to lose weight or maintain a very low body weight. The outside world sees them as too thin. There are a host of reasons why the aneroixic feels they are overweight. The therapist understands they see themselves in that light but does not agree with their "truth". One of the therapist's goals is to help the client see themself in a more loving light.
I am glad you are talking about this with your t. I've had similiar conversations about therapy ending abruptly recently. Maybe reading these threads has slipped into my sessions. My t was firm, "I am not going to one day come in here and kick you off the couch." Of course I know things happen --- but they better not happen to her.
Posted by antigua3 on August 6, 2008, at 10:19:44
In reply to Talked to him about everything, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2008, at 21:31:07
In concert with what Daisy said, I'd just like to add that this is the difficult thing so many--maybe I just mean me--people face in therapy. As Daisy always says (Ok to say Daisy?) we have to learn to hold opposing opinions/thoughts/feelings together at the same time. Otherwise we couldn't handle life, our kids, etc.
But I truly understand your feeling about how he views you vs your opinion of yourself. My view always fails to live up to his or my T's and that's my own self-image problem. I vascillate between thinking I'm worthless to I'm on top of the world, but I never want to hear it from them. My own issue of course.
And it's ok to have that heavier, or negative side of the equation, but to try not to think in black and white terms. My pdoc is always reminding me about the gray areas, that there are places/feelings/emotions in the middle that I need to consider.
I think you're great for bringing it up, even if it was in the last 10 minutes. And I'm like you, sometimes I'm so invested in bringing something up, I can't remember what they really said. (I'm currently in one of those situations; I don't remember a thing that happened at my last session!)
all my best,
antigua
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 11:03:38
In reply to Re: Talked to him about everything, posted by antigua3 on August 6, 2008, at 10:19:44
I wasn't planning to bring it up at all, really. I've worked hard to try to convince him not to censor himself so much. That I can take whatever it is he's thinking. Not to be so careful with me. That our relationship has reached a point where I trust him. I didn't want to say anything to mess that up. And naturally I also want to be delicate about noticing how happy he seems. That is his private business.
Then I just blurted it out. In response to something so far removed that he initially ignored what I said, because it made no sense in context.
I have trouble figuring out things that are this illogical. Trust means you can rely on something. But if at any moment he can (and has) changed so much, and if that is also true of the future, and if I will never really have any idea of when those changes could happen, how can I rely on it? It's like leaning on something with the full knowledge that it could be yanked out from under you at any moment. For most people here, that's a remote possibility. For me, it's not. I have to either live with that, or leave. I'm not going to leave, but it would be foolish of me to trust completely. Not in this area.
That sounds like acceptance. :(
I think part of why I'm muddled on the topic of his valuing of my personal qualities is that he is too. I could literally see him trying to figure out what to say. He's got two separate goals. To get me to see the me he sees, and to believe in that. And to assure me that he won't stop caring about me if I don't live up to his view of me. He'd say something, pause, realize that it leaned too far in one direction, then say something else, pause, and realize it didn't convey the other point he was trying to make. I guess those ten minute discussions are hard for them too.
I'm guessing that if we keep talking about it, we'll reach some sort of agreement in principle on what is acceptable to each of us.
Still... I'm kind of proud of myself. Last ten minutes or not, I did tell him something I never intended to tell him. Funny thing to say about therapy, but those things were private.
I hope you're able to process your last session. Sometimes it comes to me over time.
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 11:20:05
In reply to Re: Talked to him about everything » Dinah, posted by Annierose on August 6, 2008, at 7:51:57
I'm sorry you've been sick. I'd noticed you hadn't been around and was preparing to hail you. Are you starting to feel better?
It's hard to convey tone, but it was actually sort of a sweet exchange. He saw my remark about the way he phrased "I'd never put it that way." as exactly what it was. My preciseness in language. He was somewhat amused, I think, but gravely considered the matter and answered me in a way that made logical sense. Of course, it doesn't help that my husband and I have a running joke (from The Bickersons) "I'd never say that, Blanche." Which in context meant "I'd never *say* that, Blanche." :)
Based on something he said later, I'd say he has a new strategy to point things out in real time rather than praising me all at once. I don't know if he'll remember that. He often doesn't remember things from session to session. But if he does, I'd prefer that.
Posted by Lucie Lu on August 6, 2008, at 13:31:46
In reply to Talked to him about everything, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2008, at 21:31:07
It's interesting how things like trust and closeness which seem so unambiguous... really aren't. My T sometimes asks me to define a word I'm using, e.g. transference, not to "quiz" me but to understand what it means to ME. He says that his assuming that he knows the precise meaning of a word I use in our conversation can prevent him from hearing what I am really trying to convey and leads to miscommunication. So he is careful to try to clarify my meanings. I find that there are often surprisingly many nuances and variations within definitions, especially for such emotionally loaded words as love, trust, and closeness.
We went through this yesterday with the word closeness - he asked what it meant to me. He said that for him, closeness reflected a true engagement between people, so to be close to someone meant you were fully engaged with each other. For me, I said, it was fully about trust - that I could let myself be seen in my entirety, warts and all, by another human being, in peace and without fear of intentional hurts on either side. I also said another, different type of closeness is what you feel when you have shared a meaningful journey or experience with another person. And when you have both, that's the best kind of closeness and what most of us, therapists and therapees, keep striving for.
Dinah, with your T you seem to have all of the above. You are very fortunate, although I know you've worked hard and long to get to that point, so it's more than just good fortune. I really like what Daisy's T said about people getting yanked out of our lives all the time. Neither your T nor mine can guarantee that they won't ever be yanked from our lives (or vice versa for that matter). Even if it is by their own choice, they are presumably making those choices in response to significant forces or pressures from within their own lives - family, health, finances, whatever. Our T's recognize all too well the emotional costs of those "yanks" because they frequently have to experience them with patients they have come to know well and care for. So they try hard to shield us in every way they can think of to make our "landings" as soft as possible. I remember when you were going through all the uncertainty with your T and, even though it sometimes seemed he was making a pig's ear out of it, it always seemed he was trying to protect you in his own way. Every human relationship has its own shortcomings and imperfections, but clearly there is an awful lot of trust and closeness (and probably love too) between the two of you.
Lucie
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 13:49:51
In reply to Re: Talked to him about everything » Dinah, posted by Lucie Lu on August 6, 2008, at 13:31:46
You are right. I do know how fortunate I am. However much work and time I've put into the relationship, I know I'm still fortunate. Not all therapists would have responded the way mine has.
I am reluctant to share it, because out of context it could be misconstrued, but he has referred to the relationship between us as love on a few occasions. He trusts me to understand what he means by that. I do know what he means by that, and won't build it into anything it's not. Of course, I freely admit to loving him. And he understands what I mean by that, and doesn't read anything into it that it's not. Even my husband is aware of it, and understands it in context.
I am very very fortunate to have a loving relationship with my therapist.
I know we have different definitions of trust. Mine is based more on objective outcome I guess. He thinks mine is unrealistic, and I just don't understand his definition at all.
I do trust him to never hurt me on purpose. I do trust him to be very conflicted about hurting me at all. I do trust that it would matter a lot to him to make a decision that would hurt me. If that's the trust he wants, he has it.
I just don't trust that he *won't* hurt me, even if he might hate to do it.
Posted by Lucie Lu on August 6, 2008, at 15:10:04
In reply to Re: Talked to him about everything » Lucie Lu, posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 13:49:51
> I just don't trust that he *won't* hurt me, even if he might hate to do it.
I know what you mean. When I was little I used to love the fable of the mouse and the lion, and the mutual safety of their odd relationship. But really I think that the only thing we really can trust is that people we care about *will* hurt us at some time or other - and vice versa. As much as you love your kids or husband, could you ever promise not to hurt them? Is that even entirely under your control? I think that in any meaningful relationship, especially if it's long-term or has any depth to it, some hurt is an inevitability. The question is how much and how we recover from it. To paraphrase Daisy's T again, we can't live our lives not caring about people just to avoid losing them from our lives.
I'm not saying that describes you and your T, obviously it doesn't. It's something I keep telling myself though.Lucie
Posted by Lemonaide on August 6, 2008, at 18:23:20
In reply to Talked to him about everything, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2008, at 21:31:07
I am glad you could open up with your T about this stuff that has been bothering you. Do you feel better about it now?
The think about change, is that it isn't necessarily a bad thing, sometimes it is for the good. The one thing that you can always trust is that things do and will change. Change is hard, it makes us vulnerable, but it can also make us better. Can you think of ways in your life where change made things better for you?
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 20:24:36
In reply to Re: Talked to him about everything » Dinah, posted by Lucie Lu on August 6, 2008, at 15:10:04
Yes, that's quite true. We *can* trust that everyone we love will hurt us.
I just hope he doesn't damage me beyond repair.
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 20:26:30
In reply to Re: Talked to him about everything » Dinah, posted by Lemonaide on August 6, 2008, at 18:23:20
Depends on the change. :)
Termination = Bad change
I'd welcome some change in some areas of my life.
It is true that in general I live an almost pathologically stable life because I don't like change. I know full well that I have it pretty good, and things could be a heck of a lot worse.
But not termination. Termination is bad. Very bad.
Posted by onceupon on August 6, 2008, at 20:42:06
In reply to Re: Talked to him about everything » Lucie Lu, posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 20:24:36
"I just hope he doesn't damage me beyond repair."
How much do you trust *yourself* that, even if he does damage you, it won't be beyond repair? I don't know a lot about your therapist, but it seems that he *has* damaged you a number of times, but never beyond repair. Some of that is about how he has been responsive to your needs. And some of it is about your own capacity to withstand the damage he inflicts.
One other, possibly nonsensical thought. Paul Tillich once said, "Neurosis is the act of avoiding being by avoiding non-being." (or something like that - it's a paraphrase). I don't think you're neurotic, but your situation reminds me of some parts of existentialism I learned once upon a time. Could it be that by avoiding the "non-being" associated with the possibility that your therapist might terminate, you're also missing out on some of the "being" that could be present in your relationship? If I'm way off base, feel free to let me know. It does sound like you have a very rich relationship with your therapist, and I certainly don't mean to make it seem as if you're doing something "wrong." Hope that makes sense.
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 20:55:05
In reply to Re: Talked to him about everything » Dinah, posted by onceupon on August 6, 2008, at 20:42:06
Well, the beyond repair part was termination. I had a plan once to kill myself if he terminated me. I don't have the intention of doing that at the moment. And fortunately I didn't when he sort of terminated me after Katrina. But I'm never quite sure whether I'll remember I'm no longer planning to kill myself under the stress of the moment. I asked him a few times to make sure that there are arrangements to have me taken to someplace I can't hurt myself. But I can't be sure he took me seriously or will remember to do that.
I don't *think* I could possibly be holding anything back in my relationship with him. I may be afraid he'll terminate me, and I may obsess about it. But I don't think my engagement level could be any deeper. I *do* think one reason I can engage so fully with him is that the nature of the relationship limits the intimacy. But to the extent it's possible to engage with a therapist, I've done it. And to the extent it's possible to ethically and properly elicit an engaged response from a therapist, I think I've done that too.
He's a good therapist/mommy. But I'm one heck of a therapee/daughter too.
Which is not to say the important boundaries aren't firmly in place. They are. We both value the sacredness of the therapy space too much to do anything but value the boundaries that make therapy possible.
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 21:17:18
In reply to Re: Talked to him about everything (Trigger) » onceupon, posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 20:55:05
> He's a good therapist/mommy. But I'm one heck of a therapee/daughter too.
Definitely nothing wrong with my self esteem. :)
That sounds awful. But it is true. If there's one thing I excel at, it's being a daughter.
This is the end of the thread.
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