![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 30. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2009, at 21:28:12
In reply to Re: Need help reframing » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on June 23, 2009, at 20:47:30
I probably should refuse. Particularly given my attitude. I think it's possible that while I do want to please him, I also want him to never do this again.
I really hate this. With the exception of a few Dinah in the bath moments, I think much better in the give and take of conversation. I figure things out so much better on Babble than I would if I journaled.
I hate to draw. I'm terrible at it, and it fills me with dread to think of having to draw something someone else will see.
I don't like the rigidity that these homework assignments require. No, I can't use words instead of pictures. No, I can't type instead of write. No, I can't do it on several pages, it has to be one large sheet of paper. Etc. Etc.
And this smells to high heaven of the sort of pop psych that will make me think less of my therapist.
I may well be judging it too harshly, but if he wanted me to accept it better he should have presented it better, giving me more of an idea of the purpose.
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2009, at 21:30:40
In reply to Re: Need help reframing » Dinah, posted by obsidian on June 23, 2009, at 20:55:22
It is! If I did it properly it would be totally overwhelming and very depressing.
I looked up some of the terminology and it looks like it comes from family systems therapy or something. I was just saying that sounded interesting so maybe I should give it a try. Then when I reject it, I'll have a reason.
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2009, at 23:05:33
In reply to Re: Need help reframing » Dinah, posted by antigua3 on June 23, 2009, at 20:58:52
Dagnabbit. My post to you disappeared!
I hate it when that happens.
Let me think a bit and recollect what I had said. But I didn't want you to think I wasn't responding.
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2009, at 23:29:05
In reply to Re: Need help reframing » Dinah, posted by antigua3 on June 23, 2009, at 20:58:52
You are very much a help. I'm having my own anger issues with this. I don't know what's in his mind, but it seems to me that this is insulting to me and to the fourteen years where we supposedly talked about these things. Throwing the paper back is reasonably mild in comparison to some of the thoughts I'm having.
My family was crazy in its own way. I don't know what an average family is like, but ours probably isn't it. I got the distinct impression that as long as I acted ok, they didn't really want to know how I felt. But that could be my own belief and not the truth at all. Aside from that I don't remember any consistent unspoken rules. My family spoke anything that entered their minds. Yet doing the same wasn't a rule.
If I do the oval thing, it won't be by friday. I'm upset about other things in my life as well, and don't need the distress of digging up stuff that happened so long ago that I barely can remember.
Posted by Daisym on June 24, 2009, at 0:43:25
In reply to Re: Need help reframing » antigua3, posted by Dinah on June 23, 2009, at 23:29:05
One of the unspoken rules of my family was, "books are the final word. You can learn everything you need to know in a book - so go look it up. don't ask questions." Stuff like that. And of course, other, less benign rules. What would be interesting is to write what comes in your head - not necessarily the exercise answer. If there were no unspoken rules, how did it feel to have everything spoken? Etc.
I think by asking for ways to keep therapy fresh, you created this need in your therapist to be creative. And this is his attempt. So perhaps it would be OK to do what you do with things he tosses out in therapy -ignore what is not helpful, like the oval, and do whatever piece of it you feel drawn to. Remember this is suppose to be a tool that is helpful to you and to therapy, not just busy work. I think you can have a discussion about the anger you are feeling - what are you really mad at?
All that said, I'm with you on the drawing part. Give me words anyday!
Posted by workinprogress on June 24, 2009, at 2:16:55
In reply to Need help reframing, posted by Dinah on June 23, 2009, at 20:07:35
Dinah-
I don't have any *right* answers for you- you're sort of the expert/mother on this board. But... here's some things I thought of when I read your post and people's responses...
Maybe you've been together so long.. talking/typing, that this could be a different angle/lens through which to look at things. A way to get away from the usual, the boredom and see things in a different light (dimension).
Or... maybe your feelings about it (wanting to please him, fear of sharing your drawings... very few people are *very good* at drawing... etc) is something to talk about in itself (ok, that could be a stretch, but maybe...).
And/or... maybe in drawing, using a different aspect of your brain you'll see something differently yourself that you can then put into words while explaining.
I suppose those are all variations on the same thing. But, I know you trust him. So, maybe just try. Maybe there will be something there in the trying. Maybe it's "I can't do this because... " Or this makes me feel this way because... or something else, but it may be that it opens up a new conversation or a new way of looking at things.
MAYBE this exercise is really more about the PROCESS than the outcome. I often get stuck in my intellectual head about the outcome, when really it's all about the process...
There is no right or wrong about process, it is just the journey and where it takes you.
Does any of that help in "reframing"?
Good luck and please keep us posted..
WIP
> My therapist's response to my asking for ways to keep therapy fresh and new was to give me a homework assignment. I told him he was trying to replace boredom with humiliation.
>
> After a fair amount of verbal wrangling he said I didn't need to do it, that he wouldn't ask for it, and it was totally up to me.
>
> I do want to please him. So I would like to do it. (Although I fear that if there is much of this, my esteem for him will seep away.)
>
> It's supposed to be an exercise to understand and begin to change unhealthy patterns.
>
> Some parts I suppose I can do. Although it's surprisingly hard to think of adjectives to describe people you've known all your life.
>
> Some parts are just beyond my understanding and I don't know how I'll do them. I just talked to my husband about what unspoken rules in a family might be, and while he was generally helpful he agreed that my family didn't really have much that wasn't spoken. I might be able to consider the whole assignment merely stupid, and a punishment to me for being bored.
>
> But I have a very bad attitude toward one part of the assignment. I'm supposed to draw a big oval, and fill it with pictures or symbols of... well... "Think of times when you were embarassed or let down, or when there was some upset or crisis that involved you. Starting with the earliest events you can remember from childhood, draw a small picture or symbol of the event." You're supposed to fill this large oval with these pictures or symbols.
>
> I've told my therapist most of what would be in there, maybe all of it. I've told him the most humiliating and shameful, or upsetting events of my life. But I told him one at a time, layered with other things in the sessions. I don't understand why he wants me to recollect these things, and make a project of enshrining them in this oval, and talk about them all at once. It seems to me to be an exercise in shame.
>
> He says it's so that I can let those things go. I think that's idiotic. I don't live in the past, but yes, those things have little spaces in my being. But they're little spaces, surrounded by more pleasant things. It's not like I'm going to have some stupid sort of ritual and let them fly away like bubbles released from a pocket.
>
> I find myself very angry, and I can't help but think of it in terms of shame and humiliation.
>
> Am I missing something that makes this less horrid?
Posted by Dinah on June 24, 2009, at 7:34:51
In reply to Re: Need help reframing, posted by workinprogress on June 24, 2009, at 2:16:55
I never think of myself as any kind of expert, other than an expert in my relationship with my therapist, because of fourteen years of immensely hard work. But even there, I still obviously fall short. :(
> MAYBE this exercise is really more about the PROCESS than the outcome. I often get stuck in my intellectual head about the outcome, when really it's all about the process...
>
> There is no right or wrong about process, it is just the journey and where it takes you.I believe you're entirely right in everything you wrote. He is a big believer in things like nondominant hand writing, while I dislike it excessively. For myself anyway. I know others find it useful. It makes perfect sense that his rigidity about this is exactly what you say. Except that there is, according to him, a precisely right and wrong way to do the homework.
And I know he is doing his best to answer my concerns.
I know what you say is true. And it does help me.
The funniest thing. It feels like my family of origin is getting further and further away fom me in my mind, and my mind is going blank when I think about adjectives to describe my parents. I suppose I ought to work first on calming down.
Dinah
(I really want my therapist this morning.)
Posted by antigua3 on June 24, 2009, at 7:35:58
In reply to Re: Need help reframing » antigua3, posted by Dinah on June 23, 2009, at 23:29:05
P.S. To be fair to your T, I can't draw at all so I would be triggerd by being asked to. It embarrasses me because everyone else in my family can REALLY draw, so I rarely, if ever, even try it. And yes, they can write too.
antigua
Posted by Dinah on June 24, 2009, at 7:45:36
In reply to Re: Need help reframing » Dinah, posted by Daisym on June 24, 2009, at 0:43:25
> One of the unspoken rules of my family was, "books are the final word. You can learn everything you need to know in a book - so go look it up. don't ask questions." Stuff like that. And of course, other, less benign rules. What would be interesting is to write what comes in your head - not necessarily the exercise answer. If there were no unspoken rules, how did it feel to have everything spoken? Etc.
My therapist suggested that one unspoken rule might be there were no unspoken rules. But I think it just happened. It was no more a rule than it was a rule at our table that we ate like jaguars who had fasted for a week. I suppose also that I don't consider there to be many unspoken rules because whatever I might come up with, I'd have to take into consideration that one or another of my family had broken it regularly with no dire consequences. So how could it be a rule?
Still, maybe you have a point. My family may have been too much at odds with each other, and too volatile and extreme in their reactions, so that it would be difficult to pin down consistent rules.
But if I try to think about it, my mind gets rather fuzzy. Even my subconscious is obstinate and contrary.
> I think by asking for ways to keep therapy fresh, you created this need in your therapist to be creative. And this is his attempt. So perhaps it would be OK to do what you do with things he tosses out in therapy -ignore what is not helpful, like the oval, and do whatever piece of it you feel drawn to. Remember this is suppose to be a tool that is helpful to you and to therapy, not just busy work. I think you can have a discussion about the anger you are feeling - what are you really mad at?
He's said outright that I must do the entire exercise exactly as written. He believes that in order for it to be helpful to me, I must do it exactly as he wishes. Perhaps the object is to trust him completely or something. And I don't. There's no one I trust completely. Not even myself.
>
> All that said, I'm with you on the drawing part. Give me words anyday!I told him that if I didn't draw with my son, I sure wasn't going to draw for him. I just don't draw. I think he was shocked, and it might not be entirely true. I think on occasion I offered comic relief for my son and husband. Both of them enjoy drawing and drew together all the time. My son was very sweet and would always assure me that it wasn't *that* bad.
Maybe my humiliation inventory would include a few art classes or other public shamings regarding my lack of artistic ability.
Posted by Dinah on June 24, 2009, at 7:48:43
In reply to Re: Need help reframing » Dinah, posted by antigua3 on June 24, 2009, at 7:35:58
Yes, precisely!!!
Well, not my family so much. I don't recall my father doing more than doodling, and his handwriting is as atrocious as mine. (I got an unsastisfactory in handwriting through third grade.) I was soooo happy when computers became so common. I don't write anything anymore, except my signature. My drawing is even worse.
It was my peers I was ashamed to draw in front of.
My kindergarten teacher wrote "Dinah is unwilling to do things that she isn't good at." and that holds true today I think.
But it wasn't a rule. My mother used to find it rather annoying in me.
Posted by seldomseen on June 24, 2009, at 8:58:03
In reply to Need help reframing, posted by Dinah on June 23, 2009, at 20:07:35
This assignment would cause me stress as well.
But I have to think that the amount of emotional work that it has already caused you might prove to be beneficial for your therapy. I think this is true whether you complete the assignment or not.
Something is obviously going on here that has triggered you.
I'm going to play armchair therapist here for a second and speculate. What strikes me about your therapy is how you and your therapist appear to have come to some sort of peer relationship. Not that that's a bad thing, but you've definately progressed through the "therapist as the authority" phase of therapy and have adopted the "therapist as a partner" in your recovery. I know that's an oversimplification because our relationships with our therapists often move in and out of phases given a lot of variables.
But, partners don't give each other homework that the other "grades". Certainly not homework with rigid specifications. It seems very juvenile to me and "do it my way or it's not good enough". I would feel humiliated too.
However, knowing your therapist from what you have described, I sincerely doubt that was his intent. I'm also fairly confident that if you decide NOT to do the assignment he will "get it" and likely apologize.
This is not something that you have to do, but I would definately talk to him about it (we need an acronym for that on babble - talk to your therapist - TTYT perhaps).
Peace
Seldom.
Posted by pegasus on June 24, 2009, at 12:20:10
In reply to Need help reframing, posted by Dinah on June 23, 2009, at 20:07:35
Interesting. I seem to have had a slightly different reaction to your T's homework than others here. Maybe it's significant that I not infrequently find myself reviewing past humiliations and embarrassments. It's an agonizing thing to do, for sure. I've had thoughts, though, when this comes up, that maybe it would be useful to write them all down. I think maybe that impulse comes from a desire to organize my thoughts about these humiliations, which I (maybe magically?) expect would help me tame the accompanying, excruciating emotions. There's a sense that writing them all down would help me feel like I've dealt with them. As if I would have then found a container where they can stay, so they won't keep rearing their ugly little heads.
That said, I can't imagine why it would matter whether you use symbols and drawings versus words. I've always figured I'd use words. It seems more direct. If I used symbols, I'd have to remember what all of the symbols referred to, and there would be so many that it seems unlikely I'd be able to do that. Maybe that's the point? Reducing problematic memories into an oval full of harmless symbols, which you can then easily walk away from? It sort of makes sense to me in that context. But I'd still use words, at least at first. Maybe later I could convert them into symbols, once I'd processed them more directly with words.
But then it's curious that this came up at a time when you're not feeling particularly plagued by excruciating memories of past humiliations. This definitely seems like it warrants further explanation from your T.
As for family rules, maybe it's difficult to identify them because when they're unspoken they tend to be unconscious. And when they're unconscious, it's hard to recognize them, obviously.
Here's some rules from my family, for what it's worth (maybe it'll help you get started):
1. Your status in the family is directly related to how intelligent you are.
2. Girls clean and cook. Boys don't have to.
3. Money is evil, but if you don't have it then you're a failure. (This one still messes me up.)
4. We all follow the rules of the Catholic church. If we don't, we pretend that we do.
5. It's not OK to impose your own personal issues on other people. (For example, I was expected to cook our Thanksgiving turkey, because I'm the girl, even though I'm a vegetarian.)
6. Dad is the nominal/official head of the household, but in practice mom is in charge.
I find that family rules become apparent when you imagine things that you could do that would invoke an emotional or surprised reaction from your family. E.g., if I refused to cook a turkey at Thanksgiving, I'm sure I'd get a lot of flack from my family.
peg
Posted by Nadezda on June 24, 2009, at 14:56:48
In reply to Re: Need help reframing » antigua3, posted by Dinah on June 23, 2009, at 23:29:05
Well, one rule might be:
1. unpredictability and inconsistency are to be expected and relied upon
2. It's important for all of us to accept that some of us are just going to say whatever we want--
3. As long as someone acts ok, it's okay--in fact, it's better if they don't make you think about what's really going on.--although you, of course, are going to blurt out whatever (and we all know when and to whom this applies)
4. There are no understandable rules
5. You aren't supposed to know what's going on, but to be confused and doubt your own perceptionsThese may not be on target-- but something in that vicinity-- comes across.
About the oval thing-- I'd put one, or at most two things into the oval--if only, as you said, to know more about why you don't want to do it.. Maybe over time, you can make a few ovals. There's no great virtue in doing these exercises exactly as they're formulated-- if you can adapt them to something that is thought-provoking-- great. If not-- maybe an oval with some things that therapists-- or authority figure-- do that make you feel put down, or angry? You can put anything in to an oval, you know.
By the way, he has revitalized the therapy, hasn't he? Not in a good way, perhaps. Maybe he was taking a chance here-- with something he thinks you might be prone in the past not to like. I mean- is it possible that he's not insulting you, but thinks that going over things in a different way-- trying some new things, on areas where you haven't fully worked through the feelings-- to say the least-- (and of course-- who ever does?--especially when it comes to things one feels embarrassed or self-conscious about) -- would at least upset the applecart a bit-- and that that might be something you're ready for.
I mean he might be groping for something that would shake things up, in an interesting way-- and maybe this was a lousy idea-- but can you forgive him for not knowing what to do? being clumsy, or making a mistake? Like with the fire drill?
Nadezda
Posted by henrietta on June 24, 2009, at 20:22:37
In reply to Re: Need help reframing » Dinah, posted by Nadezda on June 24, 2009, at 14:56:48
Nobody but Dad is allowed to express anger, or even FEEL anger. (No restraints whatsoever on Dad's expressions of said banished emotion.)
No discussion of money or sex or what goes on in the bathroom (including periods).
Girls clean and cook, boys don't. (Ditto to Peg's).
You must be superior to everyone outside the family in intelligence, creativity, grammar, rhythm, beauty, knowledge of world events and the names of trees, but don't you dare try to equal Dad's attainments in these and countless other areas.
Mom will only love you if you're a failure, if you're weak and needy. "Survivor" is a verrrry dirty word.
Dad will only give you the time of day if you perfectly feed his narcissistic needs, which take a lifetime to calibrate accurately.
I could go on all night. Gee, this is fun!
Posted by henrietta on June 24, 2009, at 20:30:37
In reply to unspoken family rules, posted by henrietta on June 24, 2009, at 20:22:37
And most important of all, the "children" were created to serve the needs of the parents. Don't expect, as a child or as an adult, your parents to concern themselves with your petty lives.
Posted by henrietta on June 24, 2009, at 20:43:36
In reply to Re: unspoken family rules, posted by henrietta on June 24, 2009, at 20:30:37
No, most important of all, Never Tell The Truth.
Posted by henrietta on June 24, 2009, at 21:07:40
In reply to Re: unspoken family rules-correction, posted by henrietta on June 24, 2009, at 20:43:36
But you will be severely punished if you lie.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2009, at 17:36:41
In reply to Re: Need help reframing » Dinah, posted by seldomseen on June 24, 2009, at 8:58:03
> This is not something that you have to do, but I would definately talk to him about it (we need an acronym for that on babble - talk to your therapist - TTYT perhaps).
I've often thought that. Or that we should set it to music or something. Or a cheer? Agh. Maybe not.
I'm too upset by other stuff right now to want to do an assignment. But after I read your post, it did occur to me that part of why I disliked it was precisely what you said. It didn't seem in the current spirit of our therapy. So before everything else in my life blew up, I called him and asked if we could consider this to be something we could work on together. And he said of course.
I still don't like it, but if he's willing to give some then so am I.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2009, at 18:02:27
In reply to Re: Need help reframing, posted by pegasus on June 24, 2009, at 12:20:10
> But then it's curious that this came up at a time when you're not feeling particularly plagued by excruciating memories of past humiliations. This definitely seems like it warrants further explanation from your T.
That's what bothers me about it. The issues aren't troubling me at the moment, so why dig them up? If he could give me a good explanation, perhaps. But I suspect he just suggested it because I put him on the spot about where to go from here in therapy.
> As for family rules, maybe it's difficult to identify them because when they're unspoken they tend to be unconscious. And when they're unconscious, it's hard to recognize them, obviously.
I think I might be getting hung up on the term "rules". So many things seem unlikely to be rules to me, because someone or another always broke them. I can think of conditions, or expectations, or consequences, but rules just doesn't seem right.
> Here's some rules from my family, for what it's worth (maybe it'll help you get started):
>
> 1. Your status in the family is directly related to how intelligent you are.>
> 2. Girls clean and cook. Boys don't have to.
>
> 3. Money is evil, but if you don't have it then you're a failure. (This one still messes me up.)
>
> 4. We all follow the rules of the Catholic church. If we don't, we pretend that we do.
>
> 5. It's not OK to impose your own personal issues on other people. (For example, I was expected to cook our Thanksgiving turkey, because I'm the girl, even though I'm a vegetarian.)
>
> 6. Dad is the nominal/official head of the household, but in practice mom is in charge.
>
> I find that family rules become apparent when you imagine things that you could do that would invoke an emotional or surprised reaction from your family. E.g., if I refused to cook a turkey at Thanksgiving, I'm sure I'd get a lot of flack from my family.They would get emotional over a lot of things. Surprised? I don't know. I suppose if I did something that they didn't expect of me.
I think...
My mother and father did not like each other. So they rarely would work together on rules. (When my son was a preschooler, I told him it was grandma and grandpa's anniversary. He asked if an anniversary was what two people had if they didn't like each other.) I guess I did feel that it was my job to be peacemaker, and to reframe each's behavior so that the other would find it less annoying. They allowed me to fill that role, and led me to believe I had that power. So maybe that was a rule? I don't think so though. I think I just chose to do it to make my own life easier.
Cooking, cleaning, etc. was done by whoever cared the most. When we were little, my father cared more about meals so he generally cooked. When I got older, I earned extra money by doing household jobs like cooking and mowing the lawn. But mother cared more about the gardens, so she did that. If no one cared about something, it didn't get done. So I guess I got the message that if you cared enough to want something done, and nobody else did it, you needed to do it yourself. And possibly that if there was something that needed to be done, and no one else did it, it was your responsibility. Is that a rule?
Mother quoted over and over to me "I am the captain of my fate. I am the master of my soul." and "I have to live with myself and so, I must be fit for myself to know." That was spoken, not unspoken.
They emoted plenty, and it was ok for us to do it too. Or not. My mother generally reacted the way teachers react, as she was one. My father found it terribly amusing when I was angry.
There were expectations that it was our jobs to do well in school and go to college. But my brother did neither and nothing happened to him.
They loved us no matter what, in that dutiful parental way. But they liked being with us a heck of a lot better when we were pleasant to be around. That doesn't seem like a rule so much as common sense. My father despised at times both my mother and my brother. And I knew if I'd acted like them he'd have despised me too. I don't see a rule in that...
Both were volatile. My father didn't yell at people so much as things. Throwing shoes or cursing at his work, something like that. He brooded a lot. My mother was wonderful a lot of the time, but had a terrible and unpredictable temper. She'd also storm out of the house when she was angry, and come back hours or in one case a couple of days later, and start screaming about the mess in the house or something as soon as she walked in. I always wondered why she did that, since it made us rather wish she'd kept going. But rules? I don't know.
All those things seem more like observations than rules to me.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2009, at 18:08:54
In reply to Re: Need help reframing » Dinah, posted by Nadezda on June 24, 2009, at 14:56:48
> Well, one rule might be:
>
> 1. unpredictability and inconsistency are to be expected and relied upon
> 2. It's important for all of us to accept that some of us are just going to say whatever we want--
> 3. As long as someone acts ok, it's okay--in fact, it's better if they don't make you think about what's really going on.--although you, of course, are going to blurt out whatever (and we all know when and to whom this applies)
> 4. There are no understandable rules
> 5. You aren't supposed to know what's going on, but to be confused and doubt your own perceptions
>
> These may not be on target-- but something in that vicinity-- comes across.Yes... Perhaps so. I do know my mother, when I was young, was a different person sometimes than others, and that was scary. Daddy tended to be more cyclical. He could be relied on to be one way part of the year, and another way another part of the year. So he was maybe not so predictable. I really do think there might have been more rules if they'd have worked together.
> About the oval thing-- I'd put one, or at most two things into the oval--if only, as you said, to know more about why you don't want to do it.. Maybe over time, you can make a few ovals. There's no great virtue in doing these exercises exactly as they're formulated-- if you can adapt them to something that is thought-provoking-- great. If not-- maybe an oval with some things that therapists-- or authority figure-- do that make you feel put down, or angry? You can put anything in to an oval, you know.Not according to him... I need to do it exactly the way he said with no deviations. Except now he says we can talk about it and he'll help me figure it out. Which is nice.
> By the way, he has revitalized the therapy, hasn't he? Not in a good way, perhaps. Maybe he was taking a chance here-- with something he thinks you might be prone in the past not to like. I mean- is it possible that he's not insulting you, but thinks that going over things in a different way-- trying some new things, on areas where you haven't fully worked through the feelings-- to say the least-- (and of course-- who ever does?--especially when it comes to things one feels embarrassed or self-conscious about) -- would at least upset the applecart a bit-- and that that might be something you're ready for.
>
> I mean he might be groping for something that would shake things up, in an interesting way-- and maybe this was a lousy idea-- but can you forgive him for not knowing what to do? being clumsy, or making a mistake? Like with the fire drill?I can definitely forgive him for that. I put him on the spot and he did the best he could. I think I might be reminding him of our first meeting though. He was giving a presentation on anxiety, and I was the one saying the emperor had no clothes. :) He swears now he wasn't annoyed, but this might jog his memory.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2009, at 18:09:21
In reply to Re: Need help reframing » Dinah, posted by Nadezda on June 24, 2009, at 14:56:48
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2009, at 18:11:28
In reply to unspoken family rules, posted by henrietta on June 24, 2009, at 20:22:37
My therapist would love having you as a client!
Maybe if I think about it, I'll be able to glean more rules from what I remember.
Posted by pegasus on June 25, 2009, at 20:43:24
In reply to Re: Need help reframing » pegasus, posted by Dinah on June 25, 2009, at 18:02:27
Oh, man, if rules are only rules if they aren't broken, then there are no rules for anything. But I see your point about it being confusing if there were no consequences for breaking the rules in your family. But I also wonder if that's really completely true. Did nothing at all happen to your brother when he didn't live up to the expectations your parents communicated? I mean, maybe they didn't punish him, but did they ever express any disappointment? Or something more subtle, even? Like did they ever mutter sideways about people who don't carry their own weight or whatever? Those are all consequences of broken rules too. My mom used to put on this long suffering act whenever we didn't live up to her expectations. All while she'd say things that seemed supportive and accepting.
Maybe it would be more helpful for you, though, if you thought of these things you're trying to identify as "expectations" instead of "rules". It seems to me that that's the essence of what the exercise must be about. I mean, I think it must be about figuring out what messages your family sent you about life and families. It totally could be messages that you rejected, then or now. Or things that you've internalized so unconsciously that you can't even see them now.
The question about *why* this exercise has been assigned at this point still seems open to me. I wonder if it might be a sort of passive aggressive, petulant response to your saying that therapy wasn't fresh anymore. Or maybe that's my own projection.
Peg
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2009, at 22:24:24
In reply to Re: Need help reframing, posted by pegasus on June 25, 2009, at 20:43:24
> Oh, man, if rules are only rules if they aren't broken, then there are no rules for anything. But I see your point about it being confusing if there were no consequences for breaking the rules in your family. But I also wonder if that's really completely true. Did nothing at all happen to your brother when he didn't live up to the expectations your parents communicated? I mean, maybe they didn't punish him, but did they ever express any disappointment? Or something more subtle, even? Like did they ever mutter sideways about people who don't carry their own weight or whatever? Those are all consequences of broken rules too. My mom used to put on this long suffering act whenever we didn't live up to her expectations. All while she'd say things that seemed supportive and accepting.
There was no muttering involved. They yelled at him something awful. I guess there were consequences, but neither rules nor consequences was unspoken. :)
>
> Maybe it would be more helpful for you, though, if you thought of these things you're trying to identify as "expectations" instead of "rules". It seems to me that that's the essence of what the exercise must be about. I mean, I think it must be about figuring out what messages your family sent you about life and families. It totally could be messages that you rejected, then or now. Or things that you've internalized so unconsciously that you can't even see them now.I definitely think you're right. I'm getting too hung up on the terminology and not thinking enough of the purpose. I still find it difficult to think of anything. My parents were so... open.
>
> The question about *why* this exercise has been assigned at this point still seems open to me. I wonder if it might be a sort of passive aggressive, petulant response to your saying that therapy wasn't fresh anymore. Or maybe that's my own projection.lol. I think there was a bit of petulance involved. And a stubbornness when I rejected what he had offered. But he got over it by the next session. I don't know if he doesn't hold a grudge, or he has a very bad memory.
I on the other hand may still be a bit passive aggressive in my doing the assignment.
I think it mostly was that it was all he could think of at the moment. My therapist is more foolish than vindictive I think.
He totally redeemed himself in my eyes today. I was upset about my mother, and about some other stuff. I got to the end of the session and started crying because I really hadn't had a chance to talk to him at an emotional level. I'd gone on and on on a more intellectual level. He offered to let me come in tomorrow morning, and when I resisted messing up his weekend told me that his wife had an engagement and it was no trouble to meet me. Then when he checked and found out he was wrong, she didn't have an appointment, he kept the offer open. It was darn nice of him, but of course I didn't take him up on it.
Posted by Sigismund on June 28, 2009, at 18:03:13
In reply to unspoken family rules, posted by henrietta on June 24, 2009, at 20:22:37
We are superior to everyone else.
We are inferior to everyone else.
There is nothing worse than telling the truth.
There is nothing worse than lying.
Never ask for anything.
Everything remains the same.
Do not touch or disturb anything.
Nothing can happen.
Everything is too difficult.
This is the end of the thread.
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