![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 34. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by katia on October 13, 2003, at 14:30:29
Hi Barb, good to hear back from you. Nice to hear about the hottub/spa. Hope it helps you.
Thanks for your input about the Antabuse. My pdoc didn't tell me about that, but probably would have next session when we re-evaluate about it. So far so good with the no drinking. But I tell you, WHAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! side of me is coming out. It's been about eight days - only!! :-O On an intuitive level, i know that this is one of the harderst times and it will get better. My perceptions will change and I'll feel better and see more clearly and realize what a stupid cycle I'd been caught in and won't have the desire to reach for that yucky stuff. (I hope anyway). I've endured three nights at work and one party and it was NO FUN, but I didn't drink. I even left the party early and I pout my way through work. People are just putting up with me probably AND vice versa.
I've bought some "dealcoholized" Cab. and Chard. It's just not the same thing. Why can they make a beer so close in taste, but can't do it with wine????? It's been a helpful substitute esp. when eating something that a Cab. would normally complement so well. :-(
Yin Chiao......ah. didn't work for me. I bought a huge bottle the day I was getting sick and took massive amts. of during the day and the cold still ran it's course, in fact is still here.
I think if you take it the second you feel it rather than six hours later as i, than it will work. Otherwise it's a waste of liver processing, money, and hope. but loads of people I know take it and it works.
I doubt I'll go on Antabuse. When stopping drinking, I just need a leg up to get to that determined point to stop and then that defeated feeling of "I just can't drink - I quit" where it's not a decision anymore and I sulk my way thru' life.
I went to a second AA meeting and it was the most depressing experience and when I walked out of there (after having been previously in a good space and no desire to drink) I wanted a glass of wine to recover. however, there are so many out there that maybe I can find the right one for me.
I will check out Life Ring. It's just the meetings for that are so infrequent that it's harder to make one.
I bought a Basal therm., but the only thing it's been used for lately is checking my "cold/flu" fever temp. When this cold passes, I'll start monitoring that. All this is so much easier - all this mood charting and everything when I eliminate alcohol!
It's a tough one. I MAY consider that Naltrexone if I start to "slip up" esp. around the holidays. As of right now, that would actually only give me a reason to drink b/c I know I can on it and won't crave more. The little devil in me who loves that stuff is sneakyyyyyyy.
I'm just catching onto her.
Lots of love,
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 13, 2003, at 16:52:12
In reply to Antabuse, posted by katia on October 13, 2003, at 14:30:29
Hi Katia,
Oh, that's great. 8 days! That seems like a long time to me lately. There was a time a few years ago when I was completely abstaining. But that's because I felt so lousy with fibro I didn't feel like drinking. The desire just wasn't there. I wonder why?I go 3-4 days and begin to feel very good but then someone comes over and I'll slip up. I have learned a trick, however, and that is to do hard liquor or a orangerita (fresh OJ fresh lime and tequila). I only want just one of any hard alcohol drink and have no effect the next day. There's got to be something about wine that has my unlucky number on it.
I know what you mean about de-alc wine. It tastes like spoiled grape juice. Why bother. I wouldn't drink crummy bland chablis or other rot gut so why torture myself with watered down swampy skunk bilge? On the other hand, they've got the beer thing together (O'Douls is one I like) so I wonder why not wine?
Have you read "Rational Recovery" by Jack Trimpey? What you're talking about with just committing to stopping and the addictive sneaky little demon voice is pure AVRT (arrrgh! reminds me I haven't ordered ARVO yet!). I keep hoping I can confine it to moderation and for the most part I can. I still haven't figured out where that resolve breaks down, but maybe trying to figure it out is just another rationale for the Beast voice to buy time.
Sorry you're still off your feed. I was out shopping the other day outside of Portland and I'd swear every other person was sneezing and hacking. I started feeling it and gulped down the Yin, which I keep in the car for just those occasions. Oh, here's some more things to try if you don't already know about them:
1. Put some hydrogen peroxide (the standard 3% soltuion) into a dropper bottle and put a few drops in your ear, laying down on one side and pulling your earlobe to get the H2O2 in. Wait til the fizzing subsides, usually 10 minutes, then do the other ear. Works really well cause the eustacion tubes are one of the main points of entry for bacteria and viruses.
2. Fresh ginger tea. Chop up a big chunk, about 1/4 cup and simmer for 20 minutes. Mix with honey and fresh lemon juice to taste. Yum! It's heating and an anti-viral. I usually put brandy in it if I want to get some extra heat and sleep, but maybe that's not such a good idea for us these days.
How are you doing with lamictal? I've raised it to 150 from 125 and am ready to go up to 175 over the next few weeks. Been feeling a little down, but think the hot tub workouts are going to help alot. Hey, how's the belly dancing troupe going? I have to admire you for being able to maintain consistency with anything like that. I know I can't. I start with big plans and then can't sustain it and feel like I've let myself and everyone else down. But really, we must be compassionate with ourselves. I think about how beating myself up is so counterproductive. Would I even think about tying a little plow to my cat's backs and whipping them to plow my vegetable garden? Or being mean to them for any reason instead of trying to teach them through love and encouragement? No way and I'm not sure why I do it to myself. Anyhow, good luck to us in keeping our resolve to not hurt ourselves on our substances or any other way. Love ya, Barbara
Posted by katia on October 13, 2003, at 17:37:02
In reply to Re: Antabuse » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on October 13, 2003, at 16:52:12
HI Barbara,
Just a follow up to your responses:>> I go 3-4 days and begin to feel very good but then someone comes over and I'll slip up. I have learned a trick, however, and that is to do hard liquor or a orangerita (fresh OJ fresh lime and tequila). I only want just one of any hard alcohol drink and have no effect the next day. There's got to be something about wine that has my unlucky number on it.
That's quite good. Not me, once the demon gets roused, she just keeps going managing to spread over my consciousness and rationale.
>
> Have you read "Rational Recovery" by Jack Trimpey? What you're talking about with just committing to stopping and the addictive sneaky little demon voice is pure AVRT (arrrgh! reminds me I haven't ordered ARVO yet!). I keep hoping I can confine it to moderation and for the most part I can. I still haven't figured out where that resolve breaks down, but maybe trying to figure it out is just another rationale for the Beast voice to buy time.Yes, my beast has the same tricks.
I actually haven't read any rational recovery, just heard about it through a friend of a friend doing it. At this point, moderate drinking doesn't work for me because I eventually will have a big night after all those previous restrained moderate ones. At this point, I need to abstain for a good year or two and relearn how to drink MODERATELY ALL THE TIME.
> Sorry you're still off your feed.
quite a cute slip of words. I'm actually feeding well these days....
Thanks for the suggestions about the tea and so forth.Well, against doctor's orders, i've been decreasing the dep. quicker than what he wanted. The lam is still at25mg. I am feeling slightly elevated, but it's ok. it's feels good. But come time to work tonight, I'll be irritable and pouty.
the belly dancing.....goodness. I haven't gone back yet, although I bought a month's worth of classes (time contingent) - so basically I've lost those classes and the $65 skirt is still wrapped up on a chair in my bedroom. I just forget when the time comes (ADD?) and miss the class. just another one of those great ideas at the time that are never followed thru' with.
take care,
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 13, 2003, at 18:50:17
In reply to Re: Antabuse » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on October 13, 2003, at 17:37:02
Hi Ms. K,
>> Well, against doctor's orders, i've been decreasing the dep. quicker than what he wanted. The lam is still at25mg.
**Is your plan to try to go without Dep and try solo on Lam?
>>I am feeling slightly elevated, but it's ok. it's feels good.
**Yep, that's the ticket. Less meds, feel better. Put the drug companies out of biz. If only...
>>But come time to work tonight, I'll be irritable and pouty.
**What do you do for work? Just at night?
>
> the belly dancing.....goodness. I haven't gone back yet, although I bought a month's worth of classes (time contingent) - so basically I've lost those classes and the $65 skirt is still wrapped up on a chair in my bedroom. I just forget when the time comes (ADD?) and miss the class. just another one of those great ideas at the time that are never followed thru' with.
>
**Aren't we funny creatures? If I had 100 more years to live I wouldn't begin to put a dent in all my great ideas and plans and materials lying around still in their shrink-wrap. I wonder very strongly about ADD. I know that ADD isn't cyclical but an all the time thing, and I do have stretches where I'm focussed and organized. But I've heard that there's a real strong suspicion that BP and ADD occur together more frequently than not and may be related. As if one isn't bad enough without having the other. But maybe BP looks and acts alot like ADD but isn't really.You know, I was musing the other day about when I was growing up, my room was always a mess. I wanted it to be orderly, I like order and how a neat room looks and feels. Every so often I'd do a whirlwind spit shine, lots of energy and directedness, but then it would slowly slip and I'd forget where I put things or how to manage the ongoing maintenance. I really don't know how other people do this kind of thing. I get very distracted with messes, but can't seem to change and it's especially puzzling because I really do appreciate lovely Zen-like calm surroundings.
Posted by katia on October 14, 2003, at 1:41:52
In reply to Re: Antabuse » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on October 13, 2003, at 18:50:17
Hiya,
> > **Is your plan to try to go without Dep and try solo on Lam?
Yes, I think that's the best plan. Why add another drug before seeing how Lamictal does on its own?
Today, I wondered if I'm slightly bordering a touch hypomanic. My therapist suspected it.I work in a restaurant and really hate it. It's sooooo hard and I get soooo irritable quickly with everyone's demands. It's even harder now that I'm not drinking. Just one glass or two in the shift and end (total of) is enough to take away that awful awful irritability and almost tearful/rageful rude state I get to. btw, we can drink during the shift if a customer shares wine with us; just to let you know I'm not boozing it up behind people's backs. it's wine country cal. I really don't know how I'm going to handle this state i get to. There's nothing else I can do at the moment that pays what that pays for 2-3 nights per week. Even that doesn't cover barely half of my expenses a month. I did look into state support like you said and there's nothing out there for me. I'm just telling myself if I can get thru' this year things will change all the way around.
yes, I love zen like surroundings too. But i'm so disorganized. I get organized and then it all goes to pot again. When I was little, my room was spotless; I had to have everything in order before bed. Then around teenage years, it went to hell. There are pictures of my room and it's literally three feet in clothes and clutter. The floor was no where to be seen. I'm much better these days. I've started to be careful about opening the curtains, making my bed and straighting up as I never used to.
My very strict hard ass aunt in Milan (another story altogether how I went there from Scotland to get away in the midst of a terrible depression and she yelled at me for being a "cry baby". it was awful). But she said that no wonder your mind is disorganized, because your life is. Look at your stuff all over the floor just as it was ten years ago when you visited. nothing has changed! You need to grow up!
As it was, there was barely any of my stuff on the floor and I THOUGHT that I'd been neat. Just when I went to someone I thought I could be safe with in the midst of hell, she kicked me further there. I left crying on the next train to Florence and cried the entire way there much to the amazement of the other passengers.
anyway, another story......I've got too many of them. i should write a book. so many people have told me that, I think I should.
Anyhoo!
keep in touch.
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 14, 2003, at 14:53:13
In reply to Re: Antabuse » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on October 14, 2003, at 1:41:52
Hiya Backatcha,
Gad, a restaurant! I worked in quite a few way back when. Some very nice ones, as I suspect the one you're working in. I used to live near the Napa wine country. Some very wonderful memories of great meals there. But restaurant work is so hard!! The pressures are intense!I used to dream of the room teeming with customers all waving their arms for food orders that were all messed up. I'd wake up exhausted and anxious. And some of the jerkiest people! But you have to smile and stuff it cause Lord knows, that tip is at stake. But I did enjoy it when I was 'on'. You get such a slice of life.
Your Aunt sounds like a bear. She probably comes from the era that felt that the best way to deal with a problematic 'hysterical' person was to either literally or figuratively throw water in their face and say 'snap out of it!'. There are also some people with whom you can never do anything right and these people can be very toxic. Unfortunately, many of them are our relatives and we can't easily escape them.
I find that when my mind is on track, I can keep my surroundings in order. It's pretty easy, but still annoying to clean up my past clutter just to get to square 1. When my mind is disorganized, it's no wonder that my surroundings reflect it. I find cups in the laundry cupboard, nail clippers in the silverware drawer. I make the bed and find a pair of pants I've been looking for stuffed down at the bottom. It gets so frustrating and confusing, like I feel bad enough without the little gremlins coming in and messing with my stuff.
Soooo, sister Katia, here's my Big Plan. I ain't gonna drink no mo' no mo'. I had just one teeny glass of sherry pre-appetit with my hubby, and before you know it I had that bottle out and poured myself one honkin' glass and just for grins poured some Hornitos tequila into it. I must have had more because the rest of the evening is a blur. It's that one drink that does me in. I no longer have use of my reasoning brain and my pleasure center wakes up and demands FEED ME!!!
It's such a tempter because you know that first glass is going to make you feel just great, no matter how crabby you feel. It's such a dependable lifter of spirits, a guaranteed immediate warm buzz. But it just doesn't stop there, it needs more and more. Or even if it does stop there, for me, it's still poison. Even one (medium size) glass interfers with my meds, my sleep, my cognition. It's poison and I'm deluding myself that I can moderate it. Like you mentioned, one year abstaining is good, then we'll see. But if one has a jones, one should completely stay away from the sh*t. That'sa me. I knew when I had my first illicit drink at a friends's sleepover when I was 10 years old that wowee, I really really liked the stuff!
I'm not going to AA, it's just not my path, and like I mentioned before, living in a very small town does not foster confidentiality. So I took an oath this morning and it felt good. I'm ready. No booze. I will not drink. It will be hard, but Lord knows, I feel for your predicament. To withstand the constant pull of your surroundings shows amazing determination. That's very hard. I once heard someone say 'someone who wants to quit alcohol should not work in a liquor store'. Short of quitting your job, perhaps getting something to nullify the desire would help. So, my friend, my thoughts of strength and stamina go with you those 2-3 nights and all the rest.
Speaking of rest, it's wonderful to drift off to bed naturally, not all f*cked up, and to wake up clear and rested with no sluggishness, no headache, no remorse. I can't wait. - Barbara
Posted by katia on October 15, 2003, at 2:00:30
In reply to Re: Antabuse » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on October 14, 2003, at 14:53:13
Hi,
I am here supporting your efforts too Barbara. It's a shame your small town is too small townish. Some AA meetings can be good and you don't have to believe in all that crap to get the support. And just the two I've been to have help solidify my decision and help me get through. It makes it more real, ya know? If there's even someone you can talk to, call - someone at all to support you when you need to stay away - divert you just before you take a drink, I strongly recommend finding that person. It's too hard to do alone; esp. if your husband drinks in front of you. Maybe he could support you during the first month or so and not drink himself either?
The other thing that I've done is tell everyone I've quit so i am held to it a bit more.I was talking with someone tonight at work. I said, you know how good you start to feel after you haven't drunk in awhile? that's how I'm starting to feel. so I forgot all those reasons why I stopped. it doesn't make sense to stop - I feel good! Like I've already forgotten how shitty it makes me.....I'm taking one day at a time. My committment is two years though. It almost feels like a death. I'm in mourning.
I know these posts aren't instant when you might need instant support, but I'll support you in the ways that I can.
hugs,
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 15, 2003, at 18:55:24
In reply to Re: Antabuse » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on October 15, 2003, at 2:00:30
Hi Katia,
What an inspiring post, thank you. After only a few days I'm feeling so much better, like there's a dark lurking presence that wakes up only when alcohol is poured on it. I do know what you mean about how you start feeling better and forget why it was so important to stop. That's where the support comes in, I'm sure.My husband is very supportive and has gotten on my case many times. I know what you mean about announcing it and making it more serious. I gave my husband my word and he will hound and badger me unmercifully if I break it. I don't want to lose face quite that badly with him. The challenge will be this Chrismas season with the parties and all. I'm hoping my growing contentment and peace will outweigh any deprivation. Perhaps I'll even allow myself a trifle bit of smugness at all the drunken cavorting and shloppiness.
My method right now until I can find something else if I need it is Rational Recovery. I'm reading the book, made the Big Plan, made my spiritual vow, and I'm ready to leave substance abuse behind. It's been very interesting learning to recognize the Addictive Voice, that wheedling craving dark spirit who hides in so many dysfunctional areas of my life, and not only alcohol. The one that says 'Oh screw it, let's get those nice shoes, those boring bills can wait another month', or 'Exercise? Yuck, let's just stay here in bed all warm and cozy for a few more hours.' So insidious.
You know, there's much I really appreciate about AA, little slogans and powerlessness stuff aside. It's the spiritual aspect of it, coming to trust entirely in a Higher Power because that's really what I want my life to be about, totally and completely trusting my part in the plan of the Great Organizer Divine. So, back to my spiritual practices I seriously slacked off on - can't even remember why. Meditation is a painful waste of time nursing a hangover. It will be very interesting to see how our meds needs eventually resolve with all this good stuff. Good luck to us! - Barbara
Posted by katia on October 15, 2003, at 19:31:47
In reply to Re: Antabuse » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on October 15, 2003, at 18:55:24
Good to hear it Barb.
My mood is moving more into the irritable slightly depressed. I guess I"m still cycling....PMS, quiting drinking, cycling? what is it?I am afraid of the holiday season and may start taking that lesser "antabuse" one that you mentioned. just thru' Nov. Dec. Due to how hard it actually is to make the committment to stop and then do it, I can't indulge. Because once i start again, this soon into it, I won't stop again just b/c the holiday season is over and I won't have learned how to drink differently in the course of two months. I need two years I think for that. it trully sucks right now; hopefully I'll get over it. The holidays always suck for me anyway cuz' I'm normally alone(ish). I always managed by drinking my way thru' them (even when family is involved). It's a hard time. apart from when I'm happy and happily with family, I detest the holidays. i wish I could just depart away from the festivities and go to a culture that isn't doing that for two months. Maybe I'll survive.
take care,
katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 16, 2003, at 12:50:43
In reply to Re: Antabuse » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on October 15, 2003, at 19:31:47
Hi Katia,
Well, you're sure going through an upheaval as far as your chemistry is concerned. All of it, increasing Lam, decreasing Dep would be enough but add the alcohol withdrawal to it and it's no wonder you're feeling rocky. Plus, the more you write about your time in Scotland and the pregnancy, the more it seems like your psyche and your hormones never fully recovered and you've been running on a very low battery all this time. It's quite clear to me that not only does alcohol lift a dark mood (for a while at least), but there's also a huge energy jolt in it, all that D in the glass of D effect. I could always depend on whipping my exhausted, bored, depressed body into some kind of activity after a glass or two. So, if you're running on empty, the body must go through a hard time adjusting to no more of that false fuel, and it sure sounds like your energy has been depleted for some time now and you've been struggling so hard just to keep maintaining. I speak from personal experience. I can only trust that our adrenals will eventually heal and start working on their own steam instead of concentrated sugars that contain who knows what other crap in them.So far, I'm having good luck with Rational Recovery. It's taken some time to finally be ready for The Big Plan, in that I will never drink or use again. Whew! What a hard concept. But the Rational Recovery book is helping tremendously. Everytime I go to the bathroom I read another section and it's keep me on track - thank goodness we have two bathrooms in the house! I don't like the AA bashing in it at all, but he does raise some valid points along those lines. I just wish everyone could get along better. I do feel for you having to continually muster up the strength with your work situation. It's got to eventually get better but right now it must suck big time. Yes, the loss of the comfort and elegant rituals of drinking is deep mourning. Also realizing that eventually it will mean the loss of former friends and acquaintances who are not in alignment with your quest for a different life expression.
Yes indeed, the holidays suck. On one hand everything's so pretty and glittery and I enjoy that part of it - a chance to enter into a wonderland twinkly thing. But so much is expected of us to be merry and put on and go to parties that are really a drain, or else not have parties to go to and end up feeling alone. It's about the only time I wish I had children since it's such a close family time and everyone else, even close friends, get left out of the day. My Mom died the first week of December last year so I'm trying to prepare myself for that. I know it will be very hard, as evidenced by my meltdown in the Christmas aisles at Costco a few days ago. But I WILL NOT cop out and spend the precious and poignant time of this first anniversary soused up because I think I can't stand it. I know I can.
The 'lesser Antabuse' is Naltrexone and a holistic doctor mentioned it to me a while back, not for alcohol, but because it has a way of causing rebound sensitivity in the opioid receptors and he felt people with depression and fibromyalgia had a glitch in their natural opiod system. Small dose Naltrexone seemed to reset that glitch and allow the bodies natural opiods to do their job. But in larger amounts it quells the desire for getting high and getting high just doesn't work anyway so why bother. If it has that additional opiod thing then all the better.
I hope that you've found the right AA group, or another group, that will provide the support during the challenging holiday season. Here's a thought and one that I might take my own suggestion. Maybe going to a meditation retreat or Zen center where it would be tres uncool to imbibe could get a leg up on things and help to pass over that hump more gracefully. I know that when I'm feeling a good peaceful kind of feeling I don't really want to do anything to mess with it, it's enough. It's the giddy hypomanic merry happy that's a problem for me cause it's never enough, I just want to go higher. Well, if you've never been to the Tassajara Zen Center, you can't do much better than that. They're lightyears away from a liquor store in more ways than one. They usually close for the winter but I think there's something going over the holidays. Or any such place as long as not too expensive or there's a work exchange. There are so many retreat and spiritual centers and ashrams that have alternative holiday retreats and they're sounding better and better as I think about it. Breitenbush in Oregon is pretty fabulous and I know they have an extended holiday retreat. The thought of chanting and gongs and that deep sense of peace has it all over that bleary hangover shit. Love ya, Barbara
>
> I am afraid of the holiday season and may start taking that lesser "antabuse" one that you mentioned. just thru' Nov. Dec. Due to how hard it actually is to make the committment to stop and then do it, I can't indulge. Because once i start again, this soon into it, I won't stop again just b/c the holiday season is over and I won't have learned how to drink differently in the course of two months. I need two years I think for that. it trully sucks right now; hopefully I'll get over it. The holidays always suck for me anyway cuz' I'm normally alone(ish). I always managed by drinking my way thru' them (even when family is involved). It's a hard time. apart from when I'm happy and happily with family, I detest the holidays. i wish I could just depart away from the festivities and go to a culture that isn't doing that for two months. Maybe I'll survive.
> take care,
> katia
Posted by justyourlaugh on October 17, 2003, at 10:36:41
In reply to Re: Antabuse » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on October 16, 2003, at 12:50:43
barb,,
i cant tell you enough how much your post above really touched me..
you are very wise and compassionate,,
even though it was not for me,,it help me dearly with some much needed insight,,
mabe i too can be sober for christmas,,first i have to get through tonight...
thanks again barb,,
you are a delight.
j
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 17, 2003, at 18:36:55
In reply to barb.., posted by justyourlaugh on October 17, 2003, at 10:36:41
Dear J,
Your kind words made my day, and believe me, I needed to have my day made. I'm still sticking with the abstinence and every day gets a little easier, mainly because I have more energy to deal with the ups and downs and feel prouder of my resolve. But today is mainly downs - and so it goes. Tomorrow is another day.Keep in touch, OK? - Barbara
Posted by puravida on November 7, 2003, at 20:23:57
In reply to Re: Antabuse » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on October 14, 2003, at 1:41:52
Hi Katia, Barb, JYL,
Sitting at my computer in the evening without a drink seems so strange...but it's gotten to be a habit over the past few years that has caused me to gain about 30 pounds and do some pretty silly things, not to mention all of the money I've spent on wine...so I'm trying to break it.
I was on the MM list earlier this year and absed for three weeks. The abs and the list helped me to drink less, and/or less often, but I like drinking way too much, and haven't been able to stop completely so I can get this weight off. I keep telling myself one won't hurt, but it's hardly ever just one or two.
So, here I am nosing around - and thankful Dr. Bob started this board. Earlier this year I got to the point where I didn't care that I was depressed - a new low for me. So I decided to try to stop drinking to see if it would help my mood. I posted on the other boards to see if anyone could tell me from experience that my depression would be better, but no one really did, at least that convinced me. But, I know it takes more than three weeks - so here I go again.
I don't have Rational Recovery, but I think Responsible Drinking may be along the same lines -my Friday night reading material... :)
Thanks - PV
Posted by katia on November 8, 2003, at 0:40:21
In reply to Glad you are here - » katia, posted by puravida on November 7, 2003, at 20:23:57
Hi Puravida,
Yeah, I'm not happy one bit about not drinking. i can't lie. it sucks. I know I'll be thankful one day, but it's just definitely NOT today. I've been "on the wagon" for about one month now, apart from two slips when I went camping alone. It's been hard. In combo with not drinking, I also quit Depakote (as I"m upping on Lamictal) and felt just awfullll.... for a good week. I think I might be coming out of it a bit. I upped the Lam. 100mg today; i think that might've helped. we'll see tomorrow.
I'm still in the stages where I feel like a pouty little kid cuz' I want my wine! Whahhhhhh.....stamp my feet I'M NOT HAPPY ONE BIT!!! sulk sulk sulk, hate every mintute of it!
yuk to sobriety and ever constant awareness. I want wine and that warm feeling that follows. The world is such a better place after one/two glasses. BUT, I'm resolved to kick it this time. The only things keeping me going is I think I might have the life I want if i quit AND I won't quit forever - just two years. By that time, the beast will be tamed, I know it will. and i will reintroduce alcohol, but in a controlled civilized way. I won't be in the same place as before so I won't need it like I did before because after two years I'll have evolved!
that's me.
good to know someone else out there is trying sobriety!
good luck to you.
katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 8, 2003, at 11:19:21
In reply to Glad you are here - » katia, posted by puravida on November 7, 2003, at 20:23:57
Hi PV,
Glad you found us. My drinking time was always cooking dinner. I'd put on public radio, listen to Fresh Air, or The Splendid Table, or 'New Dimentions', have 1/2 to a bottle of wine and think profound thoughts. I adored the ritual, looked forward to it all day long. That nice warm glow Katia speaks of was waiting there for me no matter how crappy I felt. I could always depend upon feeling better immediately, could teeter over to the piano and think I sounded like hot sh*t, could write in my journal and consider myself another Hemingway (in more ways than one). Be the first and last one up on the dance floor, whip up some energy no matter how exhausted I felt.But like you, one never was enough and I'd usually come out to the kitchen the next morning feeling like I was run over by a Hummer and see the empty bottle and think 'now how did that happen?' The blank outs were concerning me, my husband's silences, my puffy face and body, the fact that I have fibromyalgia, on medication, supposedly having a spiritual practice and feeling like a hypocrite. When I was in the worst of my fibromyalgia and had to quit work and drop out of site I was too sick to drink for over a year and the taste of it nauseated me. It was hard to tell if I felt any better for it cause I was feeling like hell anyway. But as soon as I started healing that little tickle got the best of me again.
It got got the point that I knew every time I'd give in after swearing the next morning I'd 'never do it again' that I had a problem. But, apart from the pleasure the feeling gave me I now know after being off it for a month (and, like Katia, a few slip ups that I consciously gave in to), I realize how it was masking some very deep anxiety and grief.
It's very very difficult to not have that comfort and soothing there at my command and have to deal with awful discomfort and not knowing what to do with myself with the anxiety. For me, it's the anxiety more than any depression. I feel like someone's taken a file to my nerve endings and like I'll scream from the onslaught of abrasive stimuli. If it gets too bad I'll take a benzo because I don't think suffering such stress is productive and I've never had a hankering for downers anyway. They just don't do for me what wine does and abusing them for a dull 'pleasure' seems pointless.
I never considered myself a 'drunk' since I never downed a bottle of hard liquor a day or anything drastic. It was only wine and only white wine that I craved, but there's something in wine that has my name on it. It must have some kind of alergen that is sweet poison to my body cause it creates personality changes, depression and sickness. Knowing I had to do something, I went to a few AA meetings, and even though I believe very strongly in a Higher Power and many of the precepts, the whole scene really turned me off, the little slogans especially. I ultimately did it myself with the help of books and that suits my personality the best. I wish there was a compatible non-AA group here in my little rural town but c'est la vie.
The first 2 weeks of abstinence were great and blissful. The clarity, energy, and feeling proud of myself were like a euphoria that was enough. I loved waking up in the morning after a refreshing sleep with no thick heavy feeling. But now I'm going through a missing it, like an old friend, and there isn't any quick way to comfort myself. Alot of unresolved pain is surfacing and feeling out of sorts in my body. I recall reading somewhere that once you stop drinking expect a good 6 months of now having to deal with the real issues you were avoiding. That makes alot of sense, but how does one do that and not cause the further harm of deep depression and anxiety? Yes, I know about exercising, yoga, relaxation, journaling, and these things help for the most part. So does having enough energy for the most part to pursue them. But still, I haven't created any dependable long term life changes yet and I'm dealing with some true grieving that feels like it may rip me apart. But I know it won't. I know I'm very very strong and resilient and this is just discomfort and won't kill me. This also has a real and honest feeling instead of the violent black demonic despair that would overcome me from drinking. It's hard but better than the alternative, cause that nice lovely glow would always morph into bad, bad energy. Keep in touch. - Barbara
>
> Sitting at my computer in the evening without a drink seems so strange...but it's gotten to be a habit over the past few years that has caused me to gain about 30 pounds and do some pretty silly things, not to mention all of the money I've spent on wine...so I'm trying to break it.
>
> I was on the MM list earlier this year and absed for three weeks. The abs and the list helped me to drink less, and/or less often, but I like drinking way too much, and haven't been able to stop completely so I can get this weight off. I keep telling myself one won't hurt, but it's hardly ever just one or two.
>
> So, here I am nosing around - and thankful Dr. Bob started this board. Earlier this year I got to the point where I didn't care that I was depressed - a new low for me. So I decided to try to stop drinking to see if it would help my mood. I posted on the other boards to see if anyone could tell me from experience that my depression would be better, but no one really did, at least that convinced me. But, I know it takes more than three weeks - so here I go again.
>
> I don't have Rational Recovery, but I think Responsible Drinking may be along the same lines -my Friday night reading material... :)
>
> Thanks - PV
>
>
Posted by katia on November 8, 2003, at 14:53:40
In reply to Re: Glad you are here - » puravida, posted by BarbaraCat on November 8, 2003, at 11:19:21
hey Barb,
good to see you over here! Why not? You make me laugh. The image of you drinking, listening to the radio teetering over to the piano, thinking that you're Hemingway and then and then, well the next morning. How did that happen? We ask so innocently shaking our heads reaching for the coffee as tho' our sane little normally composed selves had "one night" of a bit too much; but that's just not like me at all "normally".
It's funny how we trick ourselves into thinking that it was being poured into our bodies without our will. but goddangit...I LIKE that feeling of cooking, listening and singing to music, drinking skunk blood (red wine for all of you who don't know) and letting the creativity juices flow, writing, playing the piano, dancing....
I was at a party last Sat. and barely made it thru'. Luckily I found a woman who was a ghost writer. She's always trying to get into my inner world and finally I let her because I couldn't talk to anyone else there - too loud and too bright, bottles of wine being passed under my nose. (luckily for my non-alcoholic beer). And I let her know what I was dealing with and hard it was for me to be there. She's known a good many friends/ex-husband who has either been depressed or bipolar. The instant understanding on her part made it bearable for me to be there. But the comments I heard from people: (mind you I wasn't drinking AND I was in that funk); I like the full of trouble Katia, not the good one. I like the drinking katia better. Remember you got the whole party dancing that time by insisting they turn off the Georgian (it was a Georgian feast - a friend had just come back from the country of Georgia) the Georgian music and play "I will survive" and you did a dance solo in the ring of tables. And then everyone else joined in. The whole night was a drunken debauchery. Even the uncle of my friend who is normally composed was calling himself Boris drinking a bottle of vodka and ended up throwing up on the way home.....
anyway, I'll get that spirit back, but not from spirits in the bottle! I just need to relearn. And honestly, I don't want to be the one who humiliates herself (from my perspective everyone else loved it) and gets up and dances in front of the entire party....
you've been there , i"m sure! But my point is, thing's are changing and people notice.
BTW, did you actually go to a couple of AA meetings recently?
take care,
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 10, 2003, at 19:30:04
In reply to Re: Glad you are here - » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 8, 2003, at 14:53:40
Hi Katia,
>I like the full of trouble Katia, not the good one. I like the drinking katia better.**Oh, I hear you, honey. I'm boring myself to pieces with my normal sane slightly depressed little good-girl self. If it weren't for the payback I'd be sloshing back a glass of swampwater as we speak.
>>And then everyone else joined in. The whole night was a drunken debauchery.
**It's amazing how people really want to just cut loose and give over to that wild spirit that lives inside them. At least in our culture people are so repressed and afraid of making 'fools of themselves'. Sometimes it takes just one person to ignite that spark. I've never been afraid to do that. I'm even not 'afraid' to do it when sober but I'm not always interested in it or don't have the energy or can't find the flame or passion in it. It just seems like too much trouble. Maybe that's just depression talking.
> anyway, I'll get that spirit back, but not from spirits in the bottle! I just need to relearn.
**Amen, Amen again, Sister! Just this morning for the first time in oh, upteen years, I put on my friggin running shoes that were covered with dust and took to the road. Actually, it was a dream, a very powerful dream I had last night where my Voice, my higher self who comes to me now and then told me to 'just put on my running shoes and all else will come from there'. I heaved and ho'd and had to stop frequently but afterward I felt a tingly lovely buzzy feeling that I vaguely remember from when I used to be a runner and super fit. Maybe what we'll find is a different kind of spark and spirit. I keep it in my mind that if I keep up these healthy ways in 10 years time I'll look and feel gorgeous instead of like a decrepit old bag.
>>And honestly, I don't want to be the one who humiliates herself (from my perspective everyone else loved it) and gets up and dances in front of the entire party....
**The truth is that 90% of those there truly wish they had the cojones to be that audatious. But yeah, sometimes it goes a bit too far and is hard to live down. When I get inhabited by 'the little girl', the one who displaces me entirely, the one who is pretty pissed off and doesn't give a rip - and she is definitely NOT my 'inner child' - well, things have gotten pretty interesting and I wasn't even there to enjoy it.
>>you've been there , i"m sure! But my point is, thing's are changing and people notice.
**Part of the sadness for me is that I know I'll probably have to drop the friends who still have an alcohol jones.
> BTW, did you actually go to a couple of AA meetings recently?
**No, not recently but about 5 years ago, I tried it about 5 times. I also have a very good friend who'se been in it very actively for 4 years. I always stumble on the powerless disease concept and have a very hard time with God as we know 'Him' and the emphasis on a Christian belief system that invites all sorts of fundamentalism in that I can't ignore or filter out. Like I mentioned before, I have a very strong connection to Spirit, believe wholeheartedly in a Higher Power, and love Jesus with all my heart. But I can't just sit there and pretend I can abide this generic white-bread Higher Power dude who seems to be invoked at every meeting. I also don't agree with the continual meeting-going nor do I have the time. And out here in this rural conservative logger's bastion I doubt things will be any more enlightened. What helps me, besides gritting my teeth, is attending weekly sangha at a Buddhist monastery and hanging out with the other 1/2 of my friends who don't drink. Unfortunately, they are not nearly as much fun as my wild and crazy friends. Although they're a bit more coherent as the evening wears on. I guess, dear Katia, we'll have to find a way to remain wild and crazy and not ruin our brains or livers. Lotsa love, Barbara
> take care,
> Katia
Posted by katia on November 11, 2003, at 1:57:13
In reply to Re: Glad you are here - » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 10, 2003, at 19:30:04
>
> I keep it in my mind that if I keep up these healthy ways in 10 years time I'll look and feel gorgeous instead of like a decrepit old bag.
** Yay to that. Do you have a timeframe for no drinking or is it for good? or at least one day at a time "for good". It's so hard......!!! still! but I figured, I've been drinking, on and off for almost twenty years, since age 14. it'll take more than one month for this to get easier.> **Part of the sadness for me is that I know I'll probably have to drop the friends who still have an alcohol jones.
Ditto.
>
>> What helps me, besides gritting my teeth, is attending weekly sangha at a Buddhist monastery and hanging out with the other 1/2 of my friends who don't drink. Unfortunately, they are not nearly as much fun as my wild and crazy friends. Although they're a bit more coherent as the evening wears on.** yeah, it's just not quite as fun; but way more fulfilling in the long run. It's just about relearning I think. I'm much happier even now to hang out with Buddhist meditators, than to drink myself silly than I was even three years ago. It's losing it's excitement. I just want to be able to enjoy some wine with dinner! just not right now - whaaaahhh!
See ya later.
love,
katia
Posted by katia on November 15, 2003, at 14:31:34
In reply to Re: Glad you are here - » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 10, 2003, at 19:30:04
(tail between the legs katia reporting...)
It was inevitable! With my mood as of yesterday, I went to work on fire ready to fight with anyone. It was super busy and I got two tables - one French with 7 of their own wine and another one with three of their own. Each INSISTED that I try some of it. After the second (OH! I would love to, but I quit drinking), I said OK, I'll TASTE it. And those tastes that were kept given to me totalled about 2 glasses +. God. I suddenly felt silly for being so down before and WHAT WAS THE FUSS ABOUT? Life is so easy with a bit of wine. An instant medication. I was tolerable and tolerant and funny/chatty. Went out after work and had my first martini and a comso after that. oh, and a merlot.
came home with the bartender (no sex.....thank god) and had a beer on the porch talking about the difference between intelligent people, and geniuses. Smoked a lot of cigs. Gave away a much cherished autographed book by Ken Wilber (speaking of geniuses....). And woke up this morning with my clothes still on and a waste basket near the bed (speaking of idiots....).
I'm having trouble accessing the ole' brain.
boy oh boy. They say in "recovery" that part of it is relaspe. Oh goodie - that gives me an excuse.
But it is interesting monitoring this sober thing and seeing exactly WHY i drink. it's so about self-medicating for me. I don't crave it any other time - apart from eating really good food and wanting wine to complement it.
I really hit a wall yesterday. It really felt inevitable. i'd lost all inner resources and strength.
One quick thought - Barbara - two days ago my breasts started hurting - PMS signs. That's also the day I "lost" it and continued to lose it.If one gets their hormones checked, what is the best time to do it?
AND do the levels change thru' out the month?
If I pay all this money, I want to know once and for all.
Do you know any of this?
how are you doing?
it seems you're taking a psychobabble break.
love,
katia
Posted by puravida on November 15, 2003, at 23:56:06
In reply to got drunk, period » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 15, 2003, at 14:31:34
Hi Ladies,
I'm still glad you are here - though I must say I go through so many swings of mood - one day I am feeling badly that I drink at all, the next, as you said "I suddenly felt silly for being so down before and WHAT WAS THE FUSS ABOUT? Life is so easy with a bit of wine." I don't know either.
I have noticed that right before my period, I have a tendency to get really drunk if I drink. I am usually not noticably moody (to myself, anyhow), but drinking definatly gets to me more.
Here's a thing - I remember when I was in college, I thought - gee - I could go either way. I could wear the blue suit and be the responsible, conservative citizen, OR, I'd be just as happy rolling into my local at the same time each day or night to hold down a barstool. Sometimes I wonder if my drinking seasaw isn't just an attempt to be balanced in my life. It's so easy to get sucked in - either way. We drink because our friends do and its socially acceptable - or not (AA) - either way we are choosing other people's values over our own. And, who says having three beers over three hours is OK or not?
Katia - I'm not sure how old you are (I'm nearing 40) but I have had an issue with feeling sore and lumpy, and they say that caffiene has a big impact on tissue density. So, it could be worth a look, if you do drink caffiene, and might save you some $$ if the symptoms are caffeine related as opposed to hormone related.
Well, off to bed from me -
> (tail between the legs katia reporting...)
> It was inevitable! With my mood as of yesterday, I went to work on fire ready to fight with anyone. It was super busy and I got two tables - one French with 7 of their own wine and another one with three of their own. Each INSISTED that I try some of it. After the second (OH! I would love to, but I quit drinking), I said OK, I'll TASTE it. And those tastes that were kept given to me totalled about 2 glasses +. God. I suddenly felt silly for being so down before and WHAT WAS THE FUSS ABOUT? Life is so easy with a bit of wine. An instant medication. I was tolerable and tolerant and funny/chatty. Went out after work and had my first martini and a comso after that. oh, and a merlot.
> came home with the bartender (no sex.....thank god) and had a beer on the porch talking about the difference between intelligent people, and geniuses. Smoked a lot of cigs. Gave away a much cherished autographed book by Ken Wilber (speaking of geniuses....). And woke up this morning with my clothes still on and a waste basket near the bed (speaking of idiots....).
> I'm having trouble accessing the ole' brain.
> boy oh boy. They say in "recovery" that part of it is relaspe. Oh goodie - that gives me an excuse.
> But it is interesting monitoring this sober thing and seeing exactly WHY i drink. it's so about self-medicating for me. I don't crave it any other time - apart from eating really good food and wanting wine to complement it.
> I really hit a wall yesterday. It really felt inevitable. i'd lost all inner resources and strength.
> One quick thought - Barbara - two days ago my breasts started hurting - PMS signs. That's also the day I "lost" it and continued to lose it.
>
> If one gets their hormones checked, what is the best time to do it?
> AND do the levels change thru' out the month?
> If I pay all this money, I want to know once and for all.
> Do you know any of this?
> how are you doing?
> it seems you're taking a psychobabble break.
> love,
> katia
Posted by katia on November 16, 2003, at 13:26:58
In reply to Re: got drunk, period, posted by puravida on November 15, 2003, at 23:56:06
> I have noticed that right before my period, I have a tendency to get really drunk if I drink. I am usually not noticably moody (to myself, anyhow), but drinking definatly gets to me more.
**Hi puravida,
Yes, I definitely go wacko at that time (and if I drink, I get really drunk and do stupid things). that's why I was trying to corrolate below. A day before my "crash", my breasts started to get sore (a sign of PMS for me). Wonder if this lastest bout was from hormones. It's a combo of things - my mood disorder, not being high enough yet with my Lamictal; not yet at a med combo that works for me (bipolar II/mixed). and add the PMS thing into the picture; it's hard not to go back to our old pacifiers that comfort us instantly, like vino.I drink one-two cups of coffee a day. AND in my life there have beens months and months where I stopped it AND was still depressed and/or wired the same.
> Here's a thing - I remember when I was in college, I thought - gee - I could go either way. I could wear the blue suit and be the responsible, conservative citizen, OR, I'd be just as happy rolling into my local at the same time each day or night to hold down a barstool. Sometimes I wonder if my drinking seasaw isn't just an attempt to be balanced in my life. It's so easy to get sucked in - either way. We drink because our friends do and its socially acceptable - or not (AA) - either way we are choosing other people's values over our own. And, who says having three beers over three hours is OK or not?**It's totally an individual thing. For me alcohol doesn't work; it's just I need to break it.
> Katia - I'm not sure how old you are (I'm nearing 40) but I have had an issue with feeling sore and lumpy, and they say that caffiene has a big impact on tissue density. So, it could be worth a look, if you do drink caffiene, and might save you some $$ if the symptoms are caffeine related as opposed to hormone related.
**I'm 33 yrs. old. What do mean "sore and lumpy". Are you talking about your breasts? And tissue density for the whole body? And what sort of impact does it have?
At this point, unless I KNOW something isn't good for me - I'm just not quitting things unnecessarily. I've already quit wheat and soy and sugar and alcohol (except for my slipup). Coffee is what I look forward to. One thing at a time!
thanks for your reply.
katia
Posted by KimberlyDi on November 21, 2003, at 11:30:21
In reply to Re: Antabuse » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on October 14, 2003, at 14:53:13
It was 1997 when the word "lush" went from a joke to reality. 1997: the year from Hell. I have the little bottle of Antabuse hidden in the back of my medicine closet. When binging becomes an exact science, knowing how far one can go before the body won't let you stop without a fight.
I know all this stuff. Hello everyone. My name's Kim.
Posted by KimberlyDi on November 21, 2003, at 11:52:58
In reply to got drunk, period » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 15, 2003, at 14:31:34
Hormones! a question i can answer. To get your bloodwork done to test for hormones, you will have blood drawn twice: at the peak level of your cycle, and at the lowest level. Your doctor can give you the dates to have the blood drawn if you give him/her the date of your last period.
Posted by katia on November 21, 2003, at 16:32:04
In reply to Hello Girls, guess I've found home, posted by KimberlyDi on November 21, 2003, at 11:30:21
Hi Kim,
Thanks for the messages. Did you ever take Antabuse? How did it go?Have you had a hormonal test? If so, how has it helped with this knowledge of differentiation between what's hormonal and what's mood related?
it's all so intertwined.
Katia
Posted by KimberlyDi on November 24, 2003, at 10:38:46
In reply to Re: Hello Girls, guess I've found home » KimberlyDi, posted by katia on November 21, 2003, at 16:32:04
I took Antabuse. Started out with the fear that 1 drop of alcohol even 2 weeks after stopping Antabuse would cause intense sickness and agony. Had to read all labels for lotions, shampoos, hairspray, makeup and perfume for "alcohol" ingredients that would be absorbed thru the skin and cause an adverse reaction. When dining out, had to question the waitor that no wine was used in the sauces, etc. to avoid becoming sick. It's a major pain in the buttocks. Antabuse doesn't help with cravings. It makes you too afraid to drink while you're on it.
I had hormonal bloodwork done to rule out early menopause causing my depression. My levels were normal, so the bloodwork didn't help me at all, except to rule out a cause.
Hope this helps some.
KDi in TX
> Hi Kim,
> Thanks for the messages. Did you ever take Antabuse? How did it go?
>
> Have you had a hormonal test? If so, how has it helped with this knowledge of differentiation between what's hormonal and what's mood related?
> it's all so intertwined.
> Katia
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