![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by KindGirl on March 9, 2004, at 20:53:45
Hey everyone....
Just got back from my session today after taking off last week (if you guys remember I was quitting last week! I guess I am not quitting this week. hee hee)...and T. and I talked about boundaries. I told her I was afraid I was going to make a mistake with her...cross some boundary I didn't know about and make her either mad or sick of me.FYI...I bought two copies of In Session and we both read it. She had never heard of it and really enjoyed the book, so thanks to all of you who recommended it! She said that in books like that one I can read all about different therapists with differing views on boundaries. She said some therapists have very firm boundaries, and I told her about some of the comments I read here and I would agree that some of your T's have very clear boundaries.
For instance, the whole getting a picture of your t. thing we talked about in a thread here...some of you will never get pictures of your t's apparently, mine gave me one of her...some of you have t.s that won't touch you, mine is very fine with holding me and hugging me if I want....
So................how do you feel about your boundaries with your t? Do the boundaries help you feel safe? How do they make you feel? My t. said she has very flexible boundaries and I told her that would be hard for me to accept because I am convinced I am going to overstep my place, etc. and she said, "that is not going to happen here. You will never overstep your boundaries with me."
I am sure her flexibility is esp hard for me because my mother was incredibly rigid, never wanted me around, never had time for me, told me to go outside and talk to the plants and basically let me know I was not wanted, ever. I was a bother to her. She said it and she acted on it, so when my t. says I can call her whenever I want, have extra sessions, ask her to make me tapes to help me sleep...whatever....I just can't seem to ask. :( Bummer.
Any thoughts on any of these ramblings?
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 9, 2004, at 23:14:40
In reply to How do you feel about your T's boundaries?, posted by KindGirl on March 9, 2004, at 20:53:45
I like your post and am scared to say a lot on my T. But I do not KNOW what my T's boundaries are at all. Once I asked best as I could I said I didnt want to break any rules he looked at me and said "I have no rules" Now I am sure if I got on his couch naked and danced he would NOT like that..well he might like it but I dont think it would be OK with him. If I took a baseball bat and smashed all his stuff ditto...but can I hug him if say he is sick? I do not know....this bugs me cause it kind of inhibits me. But I CANNOT ask. He has told me call anytime, I have ALL his phone numbers and so on. So I guess its way cool you know all your T's stuff and all and I am jealous cause I could use a hug from someone who really cares and I cannot do it cause I am afraid it will not be OK. So I sit holding my heart out to him in my hand but he cannot see it because it is invisable :( A plus is (please nobody lecture me in proper T behaviour) he has blatently flirted with me and said stuff but NO moves and that is cool WITH ME.
Its good you know what is OK and not OK I never have and really am to shy to ask
Posted by tinydancer on March 10, 2004, at 1:38:44
In reply to Re: How do you feel about your T's boundaries? » KindGirl, posted by Fallen4myT on March 9, 2004, at 23:14:40
Fallen, has anyone told you how lovable and sweet you are? Your post just made me giggle in agreement. I love the imagery-"I have no rules"! Not a safe thing to say to everyone perhaps. I like to think what he probably meant is that you have the right to do whatever you want and say whatever you want (barring hitting your T or destroying his office/possessions) and your T will take responsibility for handling those reactions.
It breaks my heart that you feel so much love towards your T but yet fear trusting him completely to open your heart to him. I wish more than anything that freedom for you, because I believe it is the key to healing.
Sending you lots of hugs....
Posted by tinydancer on March 10, 2004, at 1:53:24
In reply to How do you feel about your T's boundaries?, posted by KindGirl on March 9, 2004, at 20:53:45
Hey Missy!
Thank you for the great update. I find it incredibly helpful to hear about other's sessions-what they do, what they find helpful, individual therapeutic approaches and so on. I learn a lot.
I'll try to take your post in chronological order. First off, am I the only one who disliked In Session? I got absolutely nothing out of that book. I should probably read it again. But don't you love the example of the Italian p-doc who let patients sit on his lap and kiss him? One of my friends commented, "Who is getting therapy in that situation???" Haha....Anyway, I loved the imagery. I like to think that all T's have firm boundaries, but that doesn't mean that they are restrictive or insensitive people.
One day in a therapy session I discussed very openly, for the first time in my life, some of the abuse that occured. It was very difficult and even my T got teary eyed. At the end of the appointment I had this very strong sense of healing. It seemed so right and natural to give a hug. So I asked him. He sat there and thought about it a little, and felt conflicted because of my alters and what they want. In the end I didn't get a hug, but he did hold my hands and make sure I felt safe about what I had told. I think he felt bad about it, but I don't think that it changed his opinion about that being the right thing. He has a lot of thoughts on touching and after he has explained to me more of his thinking I realize how careful he is being for my sake. So that makes me feel good!
What I like best is that my T takes responsibility for handling what I say. It isn't my business to sort and categorize, he'll do that for me. As he said,"I want you to spill your heart out to me!" And I do. I feel important, cared for and listened to when I'm with him and that in itself creates a safe environment where I'm comfortable to say whatever is on my mind.
Does your T have children? I was just thinking about my T telling me that he at one time recieved phone calls at home but found out it just wouldn't work out with young children in the house. I understood that. I don't think it would be a good idea to call him on his cell phone, although I do have the number, I don't want to put him in any sort of uncomfortable position. I asked him once if I would have gotten in trouble and he said no, but that he trusted me to use my judgement or something like that. I have his email, and he is great about replying, so that's enough for me.
Posted by Karen_kay on March 10, 2004, at 7:20:54
In reply to How do you feel about your T's boundaries?, posted by KindGirl on March 9, 2004, at 20:53:45
While I personally think that boundaries stink, they do help the client know what to expect, what they can and cannot do, and more importantly when they are potentially annoying the therapist. And we'd never want to annoy our therapists, would we :)
But, I think boundaries vary depending on the client and the therapist. Many people (and not just my babble friends) dislike Bubba and his questionable boundaries, but for some odd reason it's helped to foster the proper attachment I desire. I'm no longer even attracted to him (GASP, say it aint so), nor do I think of him as a father figure. He's a darn good therapist. A bit young, but good. And his "questionable" boundaries helped to foster this view that I now have of him. If you don't feel that her boundaries are so wishy washy that you know what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior, then I think these sound fine. Each client needs something different from therapy and I applaud the therapist who isn't so rigid and can set up different sets of boundaries for different clients, ACCORDING to the client's goals in therapy... Now, if she asks you to dinner, RUN!
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on March 10, 2004, at 8:34:04
In reply to How do you feel about your T's boundaries?, posted by KindGirl on March 9, 2004, at 20:53:45
My T has very clear boundaries. Just handshakes, that's it. I'm sure there would be NO WAY he would consent to a photograph!
But I'm very happy with this arrangement. Somehow it really makes me feel cared for. I can't explain this, you would think it would be the opposite. I think if he were looser with his boundaries, it might feed into my transference issues and I would end up feeling worse, not better, about our relationship. It is very DOCTOR/PATIENT, and I know that sort of satifies my father craving, to have sort of a strict, no nonsense kind of man in my life.
If he overstepped these boundaries, I would know he would no longer have my best interests at heart, and that is what really touches me.
Posted by tinydancer on March 10, 2004, at 9:06:41
In reply to Re: How do you feel about your T's boundaries?, posted by Karen_kay on March 10, 2004, at 7:20:54
> While I personally think that boundaries stink,
Uh huh...(nodding head vigorously)
>
> But, I think boundaries vary depending on the client and the therapist. Many people (and not just my babble friends) dislike Bubba and his questionable boundaries,How so? Examples? I can't remember exactly reading about this but I forget everything anyway. Why do your friends dislike him and what has he done that is questionable?
>Each client needs something different from therapy and I applaud the therapist who isn't so rigid and can set up different sets of boundaries for different clients, ACCORDING to the client's goals in therapy...This is why I think my T is so fantastic. He isn't so rigid that he adhers to everything just because "he's supposed to". I feel he has very healthy boundaries and takes his time making decisions and giving feedback, which makes me feel that he takes his role very important.
> Now, if she asks you to dinner, RUN!Now why I would do that? That just goes against all logic...haha
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 10, 2004, at 13:54:58
In reply to Re: How do you feel about your T's boundaries? » Fallen4myT, posted by tinydancer on March 10, 2004, at 1:38:44
Oh TinyDancer what a nice thing to say and thank you. Actually my T has said that to me and that I have a rare gift: grace. He said that twice to me the first time he looked at me all kind of stunned as I was just yakking about a friend and he said that.
But :( what does it matter if it is true. It doesnt count becasue he hasnt made a move :( I am not thinking I do not trust him. I hinted once on it and he seemed odd about it so I backed way away because I would rather stay in the perimeter of his life than have him uncomfortable or dismiss me. But I don't know for sure if he knew what I was hinting at I think he did but heck it drives me crazier.
I know what you mean about the rules and he is LUCKY I have some of my mind left lol cause I could have said OH COOL, and taken say his jacket and a few books...sat with chips and talked on the phone long distance with friends lol...HE HAS TO HAVE RULES..I just don't know what they are. I wanted to send him a Christmas card but didn't cause I don't want to creep him or break any hidden rules.
I don't know what IS O.K :( The man has had tears in his eyes in some of my sessions he is so nice and has crossed some thin lines but I am often just standing in cement cause for me a list of rules would be easier to follow than "I HAVE NO RULES" and other things he said.
And he really doesn't know the DEPTH of my love for him and how unselfish it can be if he wasn't intrested in return. I fear he never will and we will both miss out for that :( It eats away at me. I erode from within with a deep love for him. I doubt he has ever had a love so deep and unselfish. And there is so much more I could say but can't cause I don't want my T bashed. :-/
And thank you :)
Posted by Karen_kay on March 10, 2004, at 13:59:14
In reply to Re: How do you feel about your T's boundaries? » Karen_kay, posted by tinydancer on March 10, 2004, at 9:06:41
Bubba's questionable boundaries (and I think Miss Honey started that phrase.... Gee, thanks..)
Well, I'll start small. He always extends sessions. Always. I think in the past 5 months we've never finished on time, and in doing so I've kinda learned to play him. Perhaps if he would have held firm with the session length, I would have learned to face my issues at the beginning of the session, rather than the end.
He answers almost any question I ask him. There was one that he said he was uncomfortable answering, but I can't remember. I've asked him if he thinks about clients when he masturbates, I've asked him if he sits around the house in his underpants (to which he answered "I even used to clean naked"). Anything I want to know about him, I've asked. And for the most part, he's told with added information.
He called me once on a Sunday at about 10 pm to cancel an appointment due to a death in the family. Now, his secretary usually confirms appointments and mine wasn't until Tuesday or Wednesday. He also told me who had dies, where he was going, and talked for a few minutes which both intrigued and scared me.
These are a few of his infractions. I'm sure if you research, you'll find other things he does that others may disagree with. He used to frequently tell me I am beautiful, but I somehow brought it to his attention and he stopped. He also seemed to foster the feelings of erotic transference I had for him, saying that there's no harm in me having a crush on him. But, eventually it did go away (darn it, that was fun).
BUT, all of those "infractions" I feel, for the most part weren't counterproductive to the process. I'm much happier and healthier today then I was when I first stepped foot in his office. I wouldn't have thought even 3 weeks ago that I'd be so comfortable with going into group, yet I am. So, Bubba worked his magic yet once again. I don't know how that man does it, but he does...
Also, run if she expects you to pay. Now, if she invites you for dinner and offers to buy, I say go eat and order lobster. Could you also order some for me?
Posted by Pfinstegg on March 10, 2004, at 15:30:27
In reply to Re: How do you feel about your T's boundaries?/lon » tinydancer, posted by Fallen4myT on March 10, 2004, at 13:54:58
What a lovely thing for your T. to have said- that you have *grace*. It's such a strong and beautiful word- and not one that is used a lot in daily life, perhaps because it is so powerful. If mine had said that to me, I would be thrilled, and would remember it for the rest of my life. The T. I had when I was very young once said to me, "you're sexy as hell" (despite all those done-up buttons!). I treasure that, and always will, because I knew he meant it and I knew it was true- not so much in how I dressed, but in how I felt inside. But I would love to be told that I had *grace*- that kind of includes all the important things.
Fun with the clothes aside, for a moment, you've given us hints about how powerful your loving feelings for your T. are. That's the BEST thing that could possibly happen- it gives you so much to work with.
Isn't it fascinating - all the most meaningful things which happen between us and our T's seem to be "border crossings" (not violations). My T. thinks that they are extremely important in helping people really grow; he welcomes them as they occur.
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 10, 2004, at 21:10:56
In reply to Re: How do you feel about your T's boundaries?/lon » Fallen4myT, posted by Pfinstegg on March 10, 2004, at 15:30:27
Oh P , thank you and yes I will never forget he said that and more so the *look on his face*. He looked awestruck, *literally awestruck* and was most sincere..he followed it with "it is a very very rare gift ". He has said many nice things to me...some being rather *border crossing at minimum* but the grace remark youre right so cool !!!! Once he busted out loling and said I was "delightful" and wondered if others saw that in me.
Yes, I do love this man a lot and would no matter how we had met. IF I thought I was a problem to him I would fake I was well..and I could do it work at seeing him less while I was getting fake well and leave him with a good taste in his mouth. Now, I know I tell people to NOT protect their T's but do as I say..not as I do :)> What a lovely thing for your T. to have said- that you have *grace*. It's such a strong and beautiful word- and not one that is used a lot in daily life, perhaps because it is so powerful. If mine had said that to me, I would be thrilled, and would remember it for the rest of my life. The T. I had when I was very young once said to me, "you're sexy as hell" (despite all those done-up buttons!). I treasure that, and always will, because I knew he meant it and I knew it was true- not so much in how I dressed, but in how I felt inside. But I would love to be told that I had *grace*- that kind of includes all the important things.
>
> Fun with the clothes aside, for a moment, you've given us hints about how powerful your loving feelings for your T. are. That's the BEST thing that could possibly happen- it gives you so much to work with.
>
> Isn't it fascinating - all the most meaningful things which happen between us and our T's seem to be "border crossings" (not violations). My T. thinks that they are extremely important in helping people really grow; he welcomes them as they occur.
Posted by tinydancer on March 11, 2004, at 5:46:07
In reply to Here goes the nightmare.. » tinydancer, posted by Karen_kay on March 10, 2004, at 13:59:14
> Bubba's questionable boundaries
Hmm, I guess I can see that they are questionable, but I don't necessarily feel that they are wrong.
I guess I'm the type of person who doesn't like adhering to rules and regulations just because they're there. I believe in individuality and that not all rules fit all people. What can help one patient could be detrimental for the other, but that doesn't make it wrong. Do you yourself feel that he crossed boundaries with you? Like to the point you felt violated? I'm just wondering, because it sounds like, indeed much like my own self, that you're very honest and need someone who is extremely brave and unafraid and won't flinch at what you have to throw at him. Or?
Posted by Karen_kay on March 11, 2004, at 6:53:21
In reply to Re: Here goes the nightmare.. » Karen_kay, posted by tinydancer on March 11, 2004, at 5:46:07
Actually I'm not very honest about things. I have a rather large problem with avoidance. So, for a while, most of our sessions would be chit chat because I would claim that "Nothing's wrong, I couldn't be better.."
I think that a lot of times, by him not having firmer boundaries, I felt guilty. I almost felt like I was "playing my games" with him as well, and he just didn't realize it. I think the only time that I felt at odds with his boundaries was when he called late that Sunday. It just seemed strange to me.
I agree that everyone needs something different, but also each person has to know where to "draw the line" as well. I don't get upset when I hear about relaxed boundaries, as I know how much they helped me to have a normal and healthy attachment. But, sometimes I do wonder if other therapists are actively trying to foster an "obsession" of sorts with the client. I was worried about thta with Bubba, but everything turned out fine. Then again, each client is different. (Don't think I'm directing this at you or anyone else in particular please. I'm just wondering out loud, you see..)
Posted by pegasus on March 11, 2004, at 11:22:14
In reply to How do you feel about your T's boundaries?, posted by KindGirl on March 9, 2004, at 20:53:45
One thing struck me as I was reading through these posts. And feel free to ignore me or yell at me if you think I'm making things up. But it seems as though it's the babblers who have Ts that have less firm boundaries that tend to talk about having intense romantic or erotic reactions to their Ts. Do you guys agree? Or am I totally out of line here?
In my own experience, it seems like the times that the boundaries are stretched a bit (going over time or discussing the Ts personal stuff) that I feel like I'm getting hooked (dependent/attached/needy) in a problematic way.
- p
Posted by Karen_kay on March 11, 2004, at 11:47:36
In reply to Re: How do you feel about your T's boundaries?, posted by pegasus on March 11, 2004, at 11:22:14
I get the same feeling as well. But, in my case, it worked out fine. I had erotic transference, as well as a parental type transference for Bubba and he had "questionable" boundaries. However, he encouraged me to talk about the feelings for a while and they just went away eventually. I wish I knew how they did and in a way I'm sad that I don't still have a crush on him, as it was fun. But, I do understand what you're saying completely, as I too have noticed it. In my case however, the feelings went away on their own, or perhaps after he allowed me to talk about and discuss them.
I honestly feel that now I have a very healthy attachment to Bubba. But, my problem leaned more on the side of keeping him at arm's length rather than being too dependent on him. I think I've always been somewhat dependent on him, just very hesitant to show it. And now I'm not afraid to anymore. I think that going through the various stages of therapy that we did was very helpful and necessary for me to realize that he'd still respect me and care about me, even when I was attracted to him, saw him as a father, was resistant, etc... But, I couldn't agree more with what you said. I don't know why it worked out in my case. Perhaps because I have a hard time forming emotional attachments and with him extending the boundaries, it showed me that he was willing to break some rules to help me? I really don't have a clue, I'm just glad the story has a happy ending in my case. I'm curious to see other's responses though..
Posted by terrics on March 11, 2004, at 14:58:31
In reply to How do you feel about your T's boundaries?, posted by KindGirl on March 9, 2004, at 20:53:45
CONFUSED! terrics
Posted by Pfinstegg on March 11, 2004, at 21:29:28
In reply to Re: How do you feel about your T's boundaries? » pegasus, posted by Karen_kay on March 11, 2004, at 11:47:36
I feel I just HAVE to express my feelings about your therapy experience! It turned out to be a really great one, and in quite a short period of time. I personally think the depth of the feelings that both you and he were able to express were really important- and those *boundary crossings* were a crucial part of really making it a meaningful and growth-inducing experience. It's just the same with me: we both cross boundaries- not violate, but definitely *cross*. Without going into detail, it's when we have both expressed sudden strong feelings for each other that I feel that something wonderful has happened to me. I feel so lucky to have a T like that; it seems to me that much more pain and a sense of "not getting anywhere" happens when these feelings don't get expressed- or when the *fit* is poor, or most unhelpful, when the T is only expressing his/her own needs without regard to the importance of the therapy relationship. I'd just venture to say that you got what you needed from your T: you'll always have that- it will probably grow stronger and mean more to you as time goes on. And you also still have him for group- and individual sessions as needed. Anyway, I am definitely in your corner- it doesn't make much sense to argue too much about methods when the results are obviously terrific!
Posted by tinydancer on March 12, 2004, at 2:01:51
In reply to Re: How do you feel about your T's boundaries?, posted by pegasus on March 11, 2004, at 11:22:14
Hey Pegasus, I would never yell at you and suggest you are making things up! Don't be afraid to share your point of view. I think its very interesting what you pointed out.
I feel that my T has very, very firm boundaries. He doesn't touch me or give me hugs. It goes further than that but that strikes me first in considering our relationship. But that hasn't stopped me from falling in love with him and having a lot of intense feelings for him.
But I also think it depends on what people want to describe as boundaries. For example, some might not see letting the time go over for sessions register as weak boundaries. My T readjusted our session time because it just wasn't enough, it was impossible to accomodate myself and issues with my alters.
Posted by pegasus on March 12, 2004, at 13:28:15
In reply to Re: How do you feel about your T's boundaries? » pegasus, posted by Karen_kay on March 11, 2004, at 11:47:36
Now, I think this is really interesting. It sounds like people can definitely be in love with their T without the T having less firm boundaries (like tinydancer said). And who knows whether softer boundaries can sometimes lead to more intense dependency or whatever. But it's good to hear that in your case, having a "crush" on your T lead to some really great results. So even if it is true, maybe it's not bad.
I've never felt that I've been in love with my T, but I have definitely felt needy and dependent in an unhealthy way. And I won't say that I haven't had sexual thoughts. He had pretty firm boundaries, but he did sometimes go over time with me. And he definitely has told me some pretty personal things about himself, although only once in a context where it was really about him and not about me. I don't know what to make of this connection, but it does seem that when we cross some of those boundaries, I start to want more from him.
Maybe it all depends on the individual people involved.
- p
Posted by obSession on March 12, 2004, at 17:19:45
In reply to Here goes the nightmare.. » tinydancer, posted by Karen_kay on March 10, 2004, at 13:59:14
oh word that is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo cool! who asked there shrink if they masturbated and thought of clients?
oh my word what did the shrink answer....
i wish i could ask my T questions like that...that is sooooooooooooooooooooo kewl!
ah and he talks about himself naked that is sooo kewl tooo aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah *hate u*
Posted by Dinah on March 12, 2004, at 19:35:47
In reply to Re: How do you feel about your T's boundaries? » Karen_kay, posted by pegasus on March 12, 2004, at 13:28:15
I doubt it's entirely a matter of the people involved. I'm guessing that humans are programmed in certain ways. Progressive mutual disclosure probably awakes certain attachment behaviors, since that's usually the way relationships work.
But on the other hand, a totally blank slate also evokes strong reactions, because we can project whatever we like onto them. Sort of like Dr. Bob here. But that sort of thing is probably best left to purely analytic traditions with clients who have a strong ego structure. I would find it way too scary.
So it's probably a fine balancing line to reveal enough to enable good reality testing in more supportive therapy, while also not revealing so much that it awakens innate bonding drives that cause us to want more than they can offer. Especially since the basic therapeutic situation is intimate enough, and stirs enough of those feelings.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.