![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by antigua3 on July 30, 2008, at 17:25:17
People on this board have often reported on how they've felt when they've been "labeled," and how much it has upset them to be categorized in a unwelcome way, or in a way that comes as a realization as to what they are dealing with.
I've never really dealt with that before--until last night. I asked my pdoc to characterize the extent of my csa, to the best of his experience. He gave me the usual, "Well, it's really how the person responds, it's not the abuse itself, etc., etc."
I said, "Come on, you know the answer to this. On a scale or contiuum, where does my experience fall?"
"Why is it important to you?"
"So I can put my experience into perspective. I have no idea where my type of experience falls."
So he answered. "Severe." and added that many little parts of it constituted abuse on their own.
I'm devastated. Glad for the answer, but devastated. It hurts so very, very much.
Why should I feel that way? Have I been so much in denial that I haven't seen the truth? Yes, I guess so, and having it classified really, really hurts. But that's part of my condition, so to speak. I don't see the world right, and my view is just so warped on so many levels. I ache to get over this, to understand and let go.
also, he used the words "victim" and "survivor" in our discussion. I have vehement reactions against both those words and I wonder why. Maybe denial again, but I do NOT want to be viewed as a victim.
What I do know is that if I share part of my story with the "outside" world, and thank god not here on babble, people treat me differently. And I've only told a handful of people. Once in group, my T forced me to tell the group what my "problem" was, and later, I swear this is true, one of the guys in the group started to hit on me. Now, NOBODY has ever hit on me before. I hated it, and that's why I don't do groups. If I could find a group that fit my needs, I would join it, but I have yet to feel safe enough to truly look for one.
My I'm chatty today.
antigua
Posted by no_rose_garden on July 30, 2008, at 17:35:07
In reply to Labels and names **another csa trigger** sorry, posted by antigua3 on July 30, 2008, at 17:25:17
I guess when I read your post, I was also thinking about my own experiences and wondered what kind of reaction would have come from the other possible answers...I haven't quite straightened my thoughts out and I don't think it would be fair for me to put them on here as they're probably wrong or I'd change my ind tomorrow...but maybe somthing to think about
Posted by muffled on July 30, 2008, at 18:13:25
In reply to Labels and names **another csa trigger** sorry, posted by antigua3 on July 30, 2008, at 17:25:17
You are who you are and you seem pretty darn nice to me.
All this stuff is so damned, I don't know, but hard.
I'm sorry.
I just say to me...'this will pass, the intensity will pass'.
And when I receive new info, 'I am the same as I was yesterday, I am the same person(s), I have new info, but I am the same as I was'.
Take good care,
M
Posted by antigua3 on July 30, 2008, at 19:13:00
In reply to (((((((((((((((((((((Antigua)))))))))))))))), posted by muffled on July 30, 2008, at 18:13:25
you're always so sweet.
I know I'm not the label, but it just shows me how bad my experience really was. I wish I could open a flood of tears, but I don't seem to be able to do that.
thanks so much,
antigua
Posted by Hermitian on July 30, 2008, at 20:04:39
In reply to Labels and names **another csa trigger** sorry, posted by antigua3 on July 30, 2008, at 17:25:17
Boy that's a tough one. I agree with you big time about labels. For one thing csa is not something you have, it was something that was done to you.
So csa is not your "problem". Its after effects are. Once you decouple who you are now from the history inflicted on you, you'll be much more able to move forward.
I read this great book on managing conversations. You can apply it to yourself as well as other people.
The central premise is that people can live in 3 time zones conversationally. The Past, The Present and The Future. Most people live in the past most of the time conversationally because it is the most accessible.
But if you are trying to grow or advance, that's the wrong phase to get stuck in. Because you end up recycling the same issues over and over.
The author's advice is to visit the past just long enough to validate and understand the problem. Once that is done, you move conversationally to the future and don't go back if you don't have too. It is the Future where you set to-be goals using the current as-is as a baseline. And lastly, you move to the present. I.e., saying to yourself, OK, I know where I've been, I know where I want to be. What can I do now to get me to my desired future?
The paradigm takes practice. Like speed reading. But it really works once you get the hang of it.
Best Wishes on Your Recovery
-H
Posted by stellabystarlight on July 31, 2008, at 2:35:31
In reply to Re: Labels and names **another csa trigger** sorry » antigua3, posted by Hermitian on July 30, 2008, at 20:04:39
Hermitian,A book about managing "3 time zone" conversations...I could really benefit from reading this book. What's the title of the book? Thanks.
stellabystarlight
> Boy that's a tough one. I agree with you big time about labels. For one thing csa is not something you have, it was something that was done to you.
>
> So csa is not your "problem". Its after effects are. Once you decouple who you are now from the history inflicted on you, you'll be much more able to move forward.
>
> I read this great book on managing conversations. You can apply it to yourself as well as other people.
>
> The central premise is that people can live in 3 time zones conversationally. The Past, The Present and The Future. Most people live in the past most of the time conversationally because it is the most accessible.
>
> But if you are trying to grow or advance, that's the wrong phase to get stuck in. Because you end up recycling the same issues over and over.
>
> The author's advice is to visit the past just long enough to validate and understand the problem. Once that is done, you move conversationally to the future and don't go back if you don't have too. It is the Future where you set to-be goals using the current as-is as a baseline. And lastly, you move to the present. I.e., saying to yourself, OK, I know where I've been, I know where I want to be. What can I do now to get me to my desired future?
>
> The paradigm takes practice. Like speed reading. But it really works once you get the hang of it.
>
> Best Wishes on Your Recovery
>
> -H
Posted by Daisym on July 31, 2008, at 2:42:13
In reply to Labels and names **another csa trigger** sorry, posted by antigua3 on July 30, 2008, at 17:25:17
So, where did you think you were on the continuum?
I used to say, "at least I didn't have to deal with X" - and X was always something worse I read about. I never saw me in the books or stories. I think it is a matter of survival and part of the splitting to make it "not that bad." It has been a huge topic of conversation for me lately because asking for help is something I hate to do and being hurt this summer has necessitated that. So when we talking about where this need to rely only on myself came from, my therapist will talk about how alone I was and how much I had to deal with. And I always say, "yes, but..."
I know that one of the things that happens with almost anyone who experiences csa is that they are taught to not believe their own perceptions. We are told we like it; that it doesn't hurt; etc. We tell ourselves that it isn't real; that it is because of x,y or z; or that we deserve it, etc. We stop feeling so now we have no gut reaction at all. Or we know but we can't remember the details. It is all crazy making. So it is important that your therapist reflect the truth back to you - it was severe - so you can trust your gut about how bad it was.
Essentially my therapist will say, "you have really good reason to feel so F-upped." And setting the csa aside for a minute, being abandoned by your mom was probably at least as bad, as far as your psyche is concerned. Research has shown how devasting it is for kids to be abandoned or neglected - emotionally ignored, or unseen. Depressed moms have infants who don't grow or develop, etc.
As far as victim or survivor - again two things to hold at the same time. You were a victim, by definition. The child within you is a victim. In her time, the trauma is fresh. YOU are a survivor, again by definition. But being a survivor doesn't have to define you - it is part of who you are. But I have the same reaction, like being a survivor is some great badge of honor. The trauma is part of our history. But only part.
And I've noticed that the breast-cancer folks have taken over the Survivor label anyway. I'm waiting to see what someone comes up with for csa next.
Posted by Hermitian on July 31, 2008, at 8:06:04
In reply to Question for Hermitian...Name of the book... » Hermitian, posted by stellabystarlight on July 31, 2008, at 2:35:31
The book was called "Leadership and the Art of Conversation" by Kim Krisco. It was recommended to me by a career coach maybe 5 years ago. I got it from a small distributor she recommended for 15 bucks. But unfortunately the latest edition is wildly expensive so I'm guessing it may be out of print. A synopsis of his paradigm can be downloaded as a pdf here:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&pwst=1&q=%22art+of+conversation%22+krisco&start=20&sa=N
The author writes from a management perspective, but my coach advised me to use it to assess my own self-talk. And she was right! If you pay attention to where you live conversationally, it is almost always in the past. It is only in changing the time period ratio that will allow you to grow.
I see a psychiatrist for ADD and also "conversations". Sure, I've had my own history. But I've made it a point to not recount the past unless I need it to connect the dots to new insight. The only thing that is important is where I'm at now and where I want to be. And I don't complain about where I am now, because it's a waste of time. It only validates the past, without saying anything about the future. Instead, I acknowledge my human frailties as true and work on a solution with the guy.
I came across a great youtube video of a female psychologist Darlene Mininni who articulates this exact tactic in 2 minutes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0Lkq7SOEvw
The secret is to allow yourself to be human by decoupling your emotions about your emotions or behaviors. E.g., feeling sad, because you are feeling sad. And then step back and calmly ask yourself how to reorient in a positive way. For example, I would ruminate about ADD behaviors I demonstrate and only become more distressed. But now when I catch myself in a negative behavior pattern, I just say to myself, "OK, that's ADD'ers do." And maybe walk it off or turn to something constructive.
Dr. Mininni has women-centric paradigm call "The Emotional Toolkit". You may want to check that out too.
Good Luck
Posted by antigua3 on July 31, 2008, at 9:08:52
In reply to Re: Labels and names **another csa trigger** sorry » antigua3, posted by Daisym on July 31, 2008, at 2:42:13
> So, where did you think you were on the continuum?
>>My T had once expressed that I was on the right side of the equation, but she's always been reticent to compare my situation w/others. I don't know where I thought I was. I've always minimalized it, and w/o having other experiences to compare it to, I just thought it was relatively normal for that situation. No, that's a lie, I knew it was bad for me, but was fearful that it wouldn't be considered that way in context. That I was just a big baby who had no reason to feel this bad.
I don't think I was able to ask the question until now. I wouldn't have been able to handle it. I can now, and it gives me something to work with. It's like it's contained and I can get my hands around it. It's not so amorphous.
>
> I used to say, "at least I didn't have to deal with X" - and X was always something worse I read about. I never saw me in the books or stories.>>I've never recognized myself either, so I minimalized it yet again, and rationalized that it wasn't so bad.
> I know that one of the things that happens with almost anyone who experiences csa is that they are taught to not believe their own perceptions.
>>This is what I was trying to say in the above posts about CBT. We are taught to NOT trust our own perceptions. Well, I want to take back my ability to trust my perceptions. I want to believe in myself! and not rely on distortions of the past. Because it affects the way I look at the world, and people, and it's distorted. I don't know what "real" is, and I put that word in quotes because I know there is no "real," but there is a healthy way to look at the world, and to judge people and actions, and I want that!
>It is all crazy making. So it is important that your therapist reflect the truth back to you - it was severe - so you can trust your gut about how bad it was.
>>Reflecting the truth back has to be at the appropriate level, I think, is important. By this, I mean the T has to be sure the patient can handle it, accept it and absorb it. Finding out how horrible "it" is can be devastating to self-esteem, etc. if the support isn't in place. I know you know this.
> Being abandoned by your mom was probably at least as bad, as far as your psyche is concerned.>>Yes, it makes for a double whammy. I was sent away a lot for long periods of time (mostly when a new baby was to be born, so add that dynamic in!). The first time I clearly remember is when I was 2 for more than two months (my first csa experience too!), and then repeatedly over the years for indeteterminate lengths. She was also emotionally unavailable for most of the time, and then sent me away as a teenager to live with my father and his new family, which put me back in a horrible place in one way, although there was no sexual abuse, but abject, total neglect. The biggest problem was the unpredictability. I never knew how long I would be gone--or she would be for that matter--and often when I thought it was going to be a certain amount of time, that time was extended or in one case became permanent, which I was totally unprepared for.
Also, her "absence" while my father was sexually abusing me is important, too.
But there are good memories of being with her when I was very young. My T says I couldn't have raised my kids in the way I was able, if I hadn't bonded properly with her. (My T is discounting the help she gave me!)
So, see, in her case, I can hold the good and bad together at the same time. I've come to peace with her, albeit it has been on restricted terms because I refuse to go into all "this" or blame her because it was what it was, and I've come to understand and accept her limitations as a person.
> As far as victim or survivor - again two things to hold at the same time. You were a victim, by definition. The child within you is a victim. In her time, the trauma is fresh. YOU are a survivor, again by definition. But being a survivor doesn't have to define you - it is part of who you are. But I have the same reaction, like being a survivor is some great badge of honor. The trauma is part of our history. But only part.
>
>>I'll mull this part over...Thank you so very much for taking the time to try to understand and offer some fresh insight,
antigua
Posted by Poet on July 31, 2008, at 10:25:26
In reply to Labels and names **another csa trigger** sorry, posted by antigua3 on July 30, 2008, at 17:25:17
Hi Antigua,
My T has said I'm a victim, too. I don't like being called one because I still think that I should have done something to stop it and if I am a victim I contributed to it. How's that for messed up?
T and babblers are the only ones who know about it. I won't tell Dr. Clueless and have forbidden my T to tell her if they ever talk again. I don't want to know what category of abuse I suffered, you are very brave for asking.
(((((Antigua))))))
Poet in Denial Land
Posted by antigua3 on July 31, 2008, at 10:49:40
In reply to Re: Labels and names **another csa trigger** sorry » antigua3, posted by Poet on July 31, 2008, at 10:25:26
I don't think you're messed up at all; I think you expressed it perfectly. So if you're messed up, I certainly am too.
I know exactly what you mean about being a victim. I think that's what underlies my problems. It's a coping mechanism that worked when we were young, and I don't think it was "irrational," I think it was all that we had and we coped pretty darn well or wouldn't be here.
But for me, the coping doesn't work anymore and I'm kind of left in this limbo that is hurtful and destructive.
But I don't want to be that way anymore! It takes way too much energy, and I have much better, more interesting things to focus on, which I do, but this still pops up in my every day life.
My T says our minds protect us, and don't let us know things from our unconscious until we are able to handle them. You can't push it. But here I am, trying to push it because I'm sick of it.
You are the best Poet. How's the poetry coming?
antigua
Posted by stellabystarlight on July 31, 2008, at 12:20:09
In reply to Re: Labels and names **another csa trigger** sorry, posted by antigua3 on July 31, 2008, at 9:08:52
Hi antigua3,
I'm sorry you had to go through such painful experiences. It's so hard to go through life with trauma in your history. I'm really struggling with my own traumatic memories and trying to come to peace with it, but it's very difficult.
I think you should be so proud of yourself for how far you have come. You're so honest and insightful. I think you've done a great job with yourself so far.
Take care.
stellabystarlight
> > So, where did you think you were on the continuum?
>
> >>My T had once expressed that I was on the right side of the equation, but she's always been reticent to compare my situation w/others. I don't know where I thought I was. I've always minimalized it, and w/o having other experiences to compare it to, I just thought it was relatively normal for that situation. No, that's a lie, I knew it was bad for me, but was fearful that it wouldn't be considered that way in context. That I was just a big baby who had no reason to feel this bad.
>
> I don't think I was able to ask the question until now. I wouldn't have been able to handle it. I can now, and it gives me something to work with. It's like it's contained and I can get my hands around it. It's not so amorphous.
> >
> > I used to say, "at least I didn't have to deal with X" - and X was always something worse I read about. I never saw me in the books or stories.
>
> >>I've never recognized myself either, so I minimalized it yet again, and rationalized that it wasn't so bad.
>
> > I know that one of the things that happens with almost anyone who experiences csa is that they are taught to not believe their own perceptions.
>
> >>This is what I was trying to say in the above posts about CBT. We are taught to NOT trust our own perceptions. Well, I want to take back my ability to trust my perceptions. I want to believe in myself! and not rely on distortions of the past. Because it affects the way I look at the world, and people, and it's distorted. I don't know what "real" is, and I put that word in quotes because I know there is no "real," but there is a healthy way to look at the world, and to judge people and actions, and I want that!
>
> >It is all crazy making. So it is important that your therapist reflect the truth back to you - it was severe - so you can trust your gut about how bad it was.
>
> >>Reflecting the truth back has to be at the appropriate level, I think, is important. By this, I mean the T has to be sure the patient can handle it, accept it and absorb it. Finding out how horrible "it" is can be devastating to self-esteem, etc. if the support isn't in place. I know you know this.
>
>
> > Being abandoned by your mom was probably at least as bad, as far as your psyche is concerned.
>
> >>Yes, it makes for a double whammy. I was sent away a lot for long periods of time (mostly when a new baby was to be born, so add that dynamic in!). The first time I clearly remember is when I was 2 for more than two months (my first csa experience too!), and then repeatedly over the years for indeteterminate lengths. She was also emotionally unavailable for most of the time, and then sent me away as a teenager to live with my father and his new family, which put me back in a horrible place in one way, although there was no sexual abuse, but abject, total neglect. The biggest problem was the unpredictability. I never knew how long I would be gone--or she would be for that matter--and often when I thought it was going to be a certain amount of time, that time was extended or in one case became permanent, which I was totally unprepared for.
>
> Also, her "absence" while my father was sexually abusing me is important, too.
>
> But there are good memories of being with her when I was very young. My T says I couldn't have raised my kids in the way I was able, if I hadn't bonded properly with her. (My T is discounting the help she gave me!)
>
> So, see, in her case, I can hold the good and bad together at the same time. I've come to peace with her, albeit it has been on restricted terms because I refuse to go into all "this" or blame her because it was what it was, and I've come to understand and accept her limitations as a person.
>
> > As far as victim or survivor - again two things to hold at the same time. You were a victim, by definition. The child within you is a victim. In her time, the trauma is fresh. YOU are a survivor, again by definition. But being a survivor doesn't have to define you - it is part of who you are. But I have the same reaction, like being a survivor is some great badge of honor. The trauma is part of our history. But only part.
> >
> >>I'll mull this part over...
>
> Thank you so very much for taking the time to try to understand and offer some fresh insight,
> antigua
Posted by antigua3 on July 31, 2008, at 12:39:18
In reply to Re: Labels and names **another csa trigger** sorry » antigua3, posted by stellabystarlight on July 31, 2008, at 12:20:09
You are so kind. It has been a long haul--I won't even mention how long! and I probably should have given up by now, but I can't. I'm driven; probably obsessed!
Thanks again for your kind words,
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on July 31, 2008, at 12:47:16
In reply to Re: Labels and names **another csa trigger** sorry, posted by no_rose_garden on July 30, 2008, at 17:35:07
Feel free to post whatever is comfortable for you. Or don't, whatever is best for you.
Take care of yourself,
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on July 31, 2008, at 12:51:04
In reply to Re: Labels and names **another csa trigger** sorry » antigua3, posted by Hermitian on July 30, 2008, at 20:04:39
I think you're right. At some point--and still at some times--I was stuck totally in the past. But I have new goals and aspirations now, am energized, and working in the present to achieve them. My therapy isn't in the background always--it rears its ugly head too often--but despite what I may sound like, I'm not so obsessed by it anymore.
antigua
Posted by Daisym on July 31, 2008, at 14:40:24
In reply to Labels and names **another csa trigger** Hermitian, posted by antigua3 on July 31, 2008, at 12:51:04
I'm working on a new concept right now - I think I "learned" to split daytime me from nighttime me - even now, the terror that fills my nights is light years for the Executive who speaks to congress...I sometimes think, "if they only knew." But mostly I don't think about it during the day. The "victim" must not emerge, must not hurt, must not feel. I have week-day me and week-end me too.
I think I learned this by living in a world that was split this way. Daytime was so NORMAL - we were the all-American family - well, OK, no dog. But still... Weekends and nighttimes were completely different. That isn't to say that violence didn't erupt during the day and the rules were always strict and harsh. But everything was understood as "strict" parenting, etc. It was harsh, not perverted.
I don't know what this adds to the discussion but I think figuring out why we are like we are is half the battle. And then we have to go further, make the connections and decide if we need to make changes. I think there is a lot of wisdom in the idea of not getting stuck in feelings about the feelings. I sure do this - I tell myself all the time, "I shouldn't feel x,y or z" - so I feel bad doubly.
Shadows have sharp edges. So I completely agree, go slow and only do what you can tolerate. Flooding is never good.
Posted by antigua3 on July 31, 2008, at 15:19:47
In reply to Re: Labels and names **another csa trigger** Hermitian » antigua3, posted by Daisym on July 31, 2008, at 14:40:24
Well, we certainly weren't the all-American family, inside or out. Our punishment was perverted even during the day, so it's hard for me to determine the split.
There is a definite "night time" father vs. daytime father even though the abuse occurred at both times. The night time holds the terror, and it makes it difficult to be in the dark. (My husband always complains that I'm always turning the lights on at night!).
OK, I think I'm really triggered now, so I'm going to stop.
thanks for everything,
antigua
Posted by Hermitian on July 31, 2008, at 15:39:17
In reply to Re: Labels and names **another csa trigger** Hermitian » antigua3, posted by Daisym on July 31, 2008, at 14:40:24
Two things. First of all there's something called Ego-State Theory which proposes that people generally affect an ego state to maximize their immediate well being. Which could be in a lousy context of course. I've worked for bosses who were absolute vulgarians and I couldn't figure out how they got married. Well they maintained two different ego states. The extreme cases are true multiple personality disorders, but most multi-state people are relatively normal. They are just socially opportunistic.
When one state though is not congruent with a person's fundamental values, then the trouble starts. Say you have a nice kid in the hood, who has to mix it up on the street. Different ego state - invitation for problems. So if you live in multiple states, and one is incongruent with your core values, see a therapist who can help you transition to homogeneity.
Re: "victim must not emerge." I read a paper related to something else about the victim mentality. In an complex yet understandable way, the author outlines how you have to put the "victim" in the closet, because all of the players in your drama were "victims" in some context. Given that, you also have to apply the Golden Rule of compassion in posterior evaluation of the other players in your drama. Which is hard. But her theory makes sense to me. You can read more here:
http://www.melodybrooke.com/cycles1.html
Her entire premise spans down the page.
Posted by antigua3 on July 31, 2008, at 17:51:05
In reply to Re: Labels and names **another csa trigger** Hermitian, posted by Hermitian on July 31, 2008, at 15:39:17
While I agree about the Wall of Grief, which I must certainly be stuck in, I don't agree that regarding our parents, "we do what they do." I certainly don't and never, ever have. And that's not a denial; it's just the truth.
As to compassion, that's beyond me. That feels like making a judgment about the persecuter/perpetrator, and I'm not my father's judge or juror, and never will be.
antigua
Posted by Dinah on July 31, 2008, at 18:22:03
In reply to Re: Labels and names **another csa trigger** Hermitian, posted by Hermitian on July 31, 2008, at 15:39:17
> The extreme cases are true multiple personality disorders, but most multi-state people are relatively normal. They are just socially opportunistic.
I'm not socially opportunistic. Nor am I multiple personality. I do consider myself relatively normal.
Posted by Daisym on July 31, 2008, at 18:44:04
In reply to Re: Labels and names **another csa trigger** Hermi, posted by Dinah on July 31, 2008, at 18:22:03
We've had lots of discussions here about ego-states and frozen age-states. Integration of states is very hard and most humans have several that pop up, depending on the circumstances. It is sort of "inner-child" work - but more than that. More like a variety of "real" selves housed in a socially acceptable "false" self - for me at least.
And I'm with Antigua here - it isn't my job to forgive my father. I'm leaving that to God. I have a relationship with him but it is a long-distance one. And I'm not like my parents - either one, very much. I worked hard to understand kids, professionally, which, of course, influenced my parenting. But my core values are pretty different as well - even what I make for dinner is different.
I guess it just shows that there is no "one-size" to any of this.
Posted by Hermitian on July 31, 2008, at 18:47:53
In reply to Re: Labels and names **another csa trigger** Hermi, posted by Dinah on July 31, 2008, at 18:22:03
Hey, waddya picking on me for? I'm not claiming any of you are any of those things.
What that woman mapped out was a general MODEL of dysfunctional interpersonal relationships. Models are not reality, only approximations. Some things may fit other specific cases, some may not. If you want to deny compassion and tell your perpetrators to pound sand, that's fine with me. If you want to pick nits and discount the entire theory, that's fine with me too.
But just don't dump on me for advancing a line of diagnostic reasoning that has some validity. You don't like what it says, ignore it.
Sheesh...
Posted by Daisym on July 31, 2008, at 19:28:06
In reply to Re: Labels and names **another csa trigger** Hermi, posted by Hermitian on July 31, 2008, at 18:47:53
Sorry - not picking on you. Should have identified that I was disagreeing with the theorist. I find that no matter what the evidence, when someone suggests compassion or letting it go, I have a bad reaction. Even as I tell myself all the time that I need to do just that. So - not you at all. My own internal conflict.
It is good to keep putting theories and research out here. Don't stop - we need to keep looking at all the various approaches.
Posted by antigua3 on July 31, 2008, at 19:31:27
In reply to Re: Labels and names **another csa trigger** Hermitian » Hermitian, posted by antigua3 on July 31, 2008, at 17:51:05
Sorry f you felt I was picking on you. I was just interested in what the link said and offering my rebuttals to it. I did think it had some good things to say and I noted them.
Again, so sorry, wasn't picking on you. It was just an intellectual discussion on the proposed model.
antigua
This is the end of the thread.
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