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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on August 1, 2008, at 23:18:04
I can't imagine how. I'm constantly showing him the stuff under all my rocks.
But he said things to me today that make me think that he might have some sort of positive transference going on. I don't think it's a realistic view of my strengths and weaknesses.
Don't get me wrong. I like to be told my strengths as much as anyone. And as anyone who knows me would know, I'm more likely than not to say "Yes, this is true!" False modesty or poor self esteem are not among my issues.
But...
Some of what he described was not me at all. And I can't see how it is at all helpful for my therapist to see me through rose colored glasses.
He could at least do me the honor of viewing me as realistically as I view him.
Posted by Dinah on August 1, 2008, at 23:19:03
In reply to Is it possible that my therapist idealizes me?, posted by Dinah on August 1, 2008, at 23:18:04
And yes, he was trying to be encouraging. But there is not so fine a line between encouraging and idealizing.
Posted by Dinah on August 1, 2008, at 23:50:35
In reply to Re: Is it possible that my therapist idealizes me?, posted by Dinah on August 1, 2008, at 23:19:03
You know, this sounds horrible. But I'm saying I *don't* agree with him.
And oddly enough, I have complained recently that he has been incorrect in the opposite direction about me.
So maybe it's just a narrow range where he overvalues me?
Or maybe he was just flat out lying to make me feel better. I'm pretty sure I'd have noticed that though.
Posted by Tabitha on August 2, 2008, at 0:02:37
In reply to Re: Is it possible that my therapist idealizes me?, posted by Dinah on August 1, 2008, at 23:50:35
Posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 1:12:32
In reply to Re: what did he say? (nm) » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on August 2, 2008, at 0:02:37
It's too embarrassing to think about much less say.
I guess he was just trying to be nice and encouraging. He ought to know my pull to the middle well enough by now. If he goes overboard on the positive, it's going to make me pull to the middle. And if he rejects my pull to the middle, it's going to make me really really anxious.
I'm probably overreacting. I really don't mind him saying nice things about me. I hope he thinks nice things about me. But I'm not what he was saying I was today. That's not fair to me. Any more than if he said something horribly negative about me.
I know I'm primed for anxious right now. So maybe it's an OCD thing. It feels scary. I feel like I need to make sure he understands. My efforts to do that today fell short. He insists I'm wrong. I know what's in me though. I know I'm not wrong. Shouldn't he believe me?
Posted by Annierose on August 2, 2008, at 10:21:43
In reply to Re: what did he say? » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 1:12:32
He shouldn't believe "you" if what you believe something about yourself isn't what he sees. If he is telling you his truth about you, what he thinks, sees and feels, well, that's his truth.
Often, we are in therapy because we see ourselves in distorted ways. It's our therapist job to show us a mirror (figuratively) once in awhile to show us that we are not necessarily the person others see. Does that make sense?
Posted by antigua3 on August 2, 2008, at 10:45:57
In reply to Re: what did he say? » Dinah, posted by Annierose on August 2, 2008, at 10:21:43
I really don't like it when my pdoc, or even my T for that matter, praises me. I find it annoying and untruthful, as if they're just trying to motivate me. I feel like it's fake. I realize that's probably self-image problem that I have. Interestingly enough, I don't have this problem necessarily IRL, just with my pdoc and T.
I know these feelings are wrong, because there are elements of truth in what they say, but I still reject any positive feedback. I especially hate when it's something about how hard I've been working in therapy, or any praise for my outside accomplishments.
Yuck,
antigua
Posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 10:50:28
In reply to Re: what did he say? » Dinah, posted by Annierose on August 2, 2008, at 10:21:43
I think it does make sense in one way. If I'm grasping the thought.
But I guess...
It feels like he's not seeing *me*. And if he's not seeing the real me, how can anything he feels about me be genuine?
And part of it may go beyond what he said, although that was bad enough, to how he "felt". My therapist isn't often fierce. He's very laid back and stays in his chair. He said this fiercely.
I know my therapist is fond of me, and thinks well of me in some or maybe many ways. But it's always been a gentle, affectionate sort of positive feelings. A smiling sort of way. He laughs at my funny way of putting things and seeing the world, in a totally positive sort of way. And that makes me feel cared for.
But I don't think I want him to have fierce positive feelings for me, even if they were realistic (which these weren't). It's scary.
I'll have to think about it some.
Maybe it feels like there are too many expectations attached? I don't want to let him down when he sees the truth. If he thinks too highly of me, especially in a fierce way, won't the negative feelings that come from disappointment be just as fierce?
Posted by onceupon on August 2, 2008, at 13:10:02
In reply to Re: what did he say? » Annierose, posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 10:50:28
I guess I'm curious too as to why there's such a discrepancy between your therapist's comments and your self-evaluation. Not that I think that one or the other is necessarily "right," but it's just interesting that he would have such a "fierce" response to something that seems so untrue for you. IME, it's difficult to convey sentiments fiercely unless I actually believe them. (But then again, I'm not a very good actor.) If your therapist is usually more laid-back, his fierce delivery seems to indicate that he must really believe whatever it is he's saying to you.
Not sure if there's a point to all this rambling, just thinking out loud. Could it be that his departure from his usual demeanor is throwing you off base with regard to evaluating the accuracy of his statements?
I think I get the scary part of it though - about the inferred expectations. I think I would feel scared too.
Posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 13:13:59
In reply to Re: what did he say?, posted by antigua3 on August 2, 2008, at 10:45:57
I hate praise for how well I'm doing for completely different reasons, but I do hate it. :) It feels invalidating. And cheerleader type praise is the worst. It always feels so fake, even if it isn't.
I imagine there are probably some historical connections here for me. (Gack!)
My mother was very generous with praise. But she was equally generous with anger when I let her down. Not by making mistakes or anything. She was fine in that way. But by not being the Dinah she had created in her mind. The one who wanted what she wanted and thought as she thought.
My father was stingy with praise, and generous with little put downs. It sounds more awful than it was. I would hear how he talked about me with pride to others. But it wasn't his way to do that with me directly. He showed his love and pride in his own way, so that I never took his negative statements too seriously.
I suppose all those things influence how I feel about extremes in praise.
But still... Had he kept his positive statements to what I have done, I would be fine with it. Perhaps even positive statements about this or that of my qualites. He wasn't making comments about my actions. He was making comments about who I am.
I'm probably making too much of it. And it may be because I'm already having problems with anxiety. But it seems like a lot of pressure and a long way to fall, and an inevitable fall because he's *wrong*.
Posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 13:21:18
In reply to Re: what did he say?, posted by onceupon on August 2, 2008, at 13:10:02
I'm pretty sure he did mean it. It was a departure for him, and an unexpected one. But there was no mistaking his attitude.
I don't know why he believes what he believes about me. He must be listening to some of what I say, and discounting the rest of it. Certainly I've never tried to hide anything.
I don't know. Maybe his point was that everyone has things inside them. Fears and limitations and weaknesses. But that that doesn't matter as much as what's one does? That might be slightly less scary in a way, but way more invalidating.
Posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 13:42:16
In reply to Re: what did he say? » onceupon, posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 13:21:18
I really *have* regressed in therapy.
I have been pretty consistent at identifying things that are bothering me while I'm still in session.
Yet while I argued with him about this during session, trying to get him to see my point of view, I left the session feeling pretty good.
Then wham! it blows up later. It's happened a few times lately.
Maybe I should just accept that I've regressed a bit and need to move forward just to get to where I was before.
Posted by antigua3 on August 2, 2008, at 13:57:31
In reply to rofl. I'm back to timebomb issues too., posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 13:42:16
Remember, regression serves its purpose. One step forward, two steps back, or is the other way around?
antigua
Posted by Nadezda on August 2, 2008, at 14:34:07
In reply to Re: rofl. I'm back to timebomb issues too. » Dinah, posted by antigua3 on August 2, 2008, at 13:57:31
Well, the possibilities are that your view of yourself is mistaken; his feelings are stronger than you at the moment feel comfortable with; or he's idealizing you and responding to his idealization. There are probably others.
I know you're not often wrong, but isn't it possible that he's got his view of you and it's different from yours-- and that either you're more aware of your flaws, and he's more aware of your strengths, or that you value them differently?
As to his feelings-- maybe you're not comfortable with them, or weren't aware of them-- but they are his. He probably can manage them-- and over time, you can too. It could be the surprise-- and then the sense that it's not so pleasant to be surprised, especially by stronger feelings than you had expected. That you're worried you'll disappoint him, or he'll come to his senses? or that he will go off the tracks?
I do have a lot of questions-- but my general sense is that this is unsettling, but, as with other unsettling things, you'll find a way to work with it. Maybe this is harder than some other things-- or different and not what you're used to-- but even if you've regressed for the moment, it's not a permanent state.
Based on the past, maybe your relationship has moved into a new phase, and you're ready to face new challenges, more than you realize.
The fact that you left his office feeling good says to me that this is not really such a bad thing-- just very new and hard to take in. But that you will, over time.
Nadezda
Posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 15:38:48
In reply to Re: rofl. I'm back to timebomb issues too. » Dinah, posted by antigua3 on August 2, 2008, at 13:57:31
That was the topic of Daisy's excellent insight.
My therapist's crisis is over now, and he's a happy little therapist. But I'm left with the uncertainty his crisis created in our therapy, and the knowledge that not only can it recur, but that I have no way of getting advance warning. So like with kids after a parent's crisis, I now feel safe enough to be angry and clingy. And apparently regress in other ways too.
She said it ever so much better, and I was probably too upset to take it in exactly right anyway. But it was so absolutely correct that I was floored that it hadn't even crossed my consciousness as a possibility.
Posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 16:11:02
In reply to Re: rofl. I'm back to timebomb issues too., posted by Nadezda on August 2, 2008, at 14:34:07
> Well, the possibilities are that your view of yourself is mistaken; his feelings are stronger than you at the moment feel comfortable with; or he's idealizing you and responding to his idealization. There are probably others.
> I know you're not often wrong, but isn't it possible that he's got his view of you and it's different from yours-- and that either you're more aware of your flaws, and he's more aware of your strengths, or that you value them differently?
Well, anything's possible. But I highly value my abilities to assess myself realistically. I'd have to reorganize my self concept entirely if I admit that my flaws are less than I think. :)
I really don't know about him. I'm going to have to think about it, and try to puzzle it out over time. I have my view of what he thinks of me in terms of strengths and weaknesses. I know he values my commitment and loyalty and my own weird sort of stability. I'll make a huge leap here and say that I think they touch him personally. The way I've fought to relationship. I always say he's very good at it, and he is. But I take the lead in that more often than he does. He responds beautifully. But I think he appreciates how much I value that. I think also that now he understands my odd way of expressing myself, he appreciates what he sees as wisdom in what I say sometimes. Another slighter leap, because he's more likely to say that out loud. Of course, sometimes he thinks what I say is very foolish. And that's no leap at all, because now he's comfortable with me, he lets me know when he thinks I'm being foolish, because he knows I actually like that.
Soooo.... If I put it all together, what do I get? I'm not sure. I think I might be putting too much importance on myself if I say that certain qualities he thinks I have may mean something to him personally. And that that may lead him to overvalue those qualities?
Pure speculation here. Absolute pure speculation. And probably really conceited speculation, so I think I'm going to have to discount it. I know I'm not all that important to him. So I doubt I'd have that much of an impact on him. He often forgets to return my calls for heavens sake. He says he doesn't forget me the moment I walk out of the office, but he acts as if he does.
> As to his feelings-- maybe you're not comfortable with them, or weren't aware of them-- but they are his. He probably can manage them-- and over time, you can too. It could be the surprise-- and then the sense that it's not so pleasant to be surprised, especially by stronger feelings than you had expected. That you're worried you'll disappoint him, or he'll come to his senses? or that he will go off the tracks?It's funny how I manage to make sense of things when I talk them out at Babble. Not unlike therapy itself. I think that the fierceness of his attitude was probably related to how urgently he was trying to get me to see myself from his point of view. It's not that his feelings were stronger, perhaps, but that he felt it was very important to convey them because it was the right moment for me to hear them.
It surprises me that he didn't consider that speaking more urgently would be more likely to make me reject his point of view than accept it. Sometimes he *does* say something that changes my entire way of viewing myself or a situation. But it's never because he ups the intensity. It's because he says something in such a way that it reaches me the way it never did the other thousand times he said it. He found the key to unlock my mind. He didn't force it open. Maybe he thought it was something that couldn't wait for him to patiently try one key after another.
Of course, I usually give him far more credit for thinking these things out than he actually deserves. Most likely he was thinking nothing special at all. Still, I get a lot of good therapy this way - with my imaginary brilliant therapist.
>
> I do have a lot of questions-- but my general sense is that this is unsettling, but, as with other unsettling things, you'll find a way to work with it. Maybe this is harder than some other things-- or different and not what you're used to-- but even if you've regressed for the moment, it's not a permanent state.I think my regression may be a separate thing. I explained it in the post immediately above this one. I know we will get through it. But I think that when someone overvalues someone else, they tend to get angry when they discover that. I don't want him to have that sort of anger with me. It's not fair to me. I've tried to be honest with him.
> Based on the past, maybe your relationship has moved into a new phase, and you're ready to face new challenges, more than you realize.
>
> The fact that you left his office feeling good says to me that this is not really such a bad thing-- just very new and hard to take in. But that you will, over time.
>
>
> NadezdaWell, an even better solution would be for him to have forgotten all this by the next time I see him. And dollars to donuts he will. Because I'm the one trying to figure it out between sessions. If I bring it up with him, I'd have to politely remind him what happened, then try to explain what affect I saw when it was happening. He'll think I'm totally nuts.
There are some benefits to having a therapist who forgets a whole heck of a lot.
And also some benefits to knowing what's bothering me during the session instead of after. After is no good at all with him. He'll have forgotten.
Posted by Nadezda on August 2, 2008, at 16:57:08
In reply to Re: rofl. I'm back to timebomb issues too. » Nadezda, posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 16:11:02
Maybe. But are you protecting yourself from expecting too much, or believing too much? Or protecting your optimistic, self-admiring side (we all have one, and there's nothing wrong with it, actually-- it's one of our strengths) from your more pessimistic, self-denigrating side? Or trying to keep them in a comfortable, or accustomed balance?
Oh-- and by the way-- if some of your qualities mean something to him personally, as I have no doubt that they do-- that means he does have a certain value for them-- maybe not the universal value-- & maybe he's idealizing a bit-- I don't mean to press this on you; maybe he is quite off-- but is it so far-fetched to try them on for size, just provisionally-- or someday?
Don't mind me if I"m completely wrong-- maybe I'm thinking about my own issues--not that my T idealizes me--.
But which post had Daisy's insights?
Nadezda
Posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 17:00:27
In reply to Re: rofl. I'm back to timebomb issues too., posted by Nadezda on August 2, 2008, at 16:57:08
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20080727/msgs/843749.html
Unfortunately she said it in chat, and I'm only badly paraphrasing.
I would of course be delighted if she said it again so I can word it properly if I ever bring it up with him. But I don't want to in any way pressure her.
Posted by Daisym on August 2, 2008, at 17:22:31
In reply to Is it possible that my therapist idealizes me?, posted by Dinah on August 1, 2008, at 23:18:04
How could he not?
One of the things that I think he has *always* taken for granted is your ability to sef-analyze and keep both of you on track. You are very psycholgically intelligent and you know what you need pretty well. He gets to build on your self-laid foundation. That isn't a bad thing at all.
But when you are regressed, his attempts of build on a foundation, which is momentarily less secure, must feel like pressure - a brick that is too heavy or put in the wrong place. It is a regulation thing - he helps you regulate and in this case he didn't - he dropped something in that you had to hold yourself. Good or bad, that is hard.
And I think anything that surprises you about your therapist right now is not going to sit well. You need him to be predictible and that unflappable presence that you value so much. I suspect that you don't trust that this positive assessment isn't part of his current "glow" -- that it doesn't really belong to you at all. Even if it is true - you speak about the vehemence of his belief - did he need for you to believe him for some reason?
This reminds me of what we often tell our home visitors - be careful with compliments. Judging someone positively still shows that you can, and will, judge them.
Posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 17:47:42
In reply to Re: Is it possible that my therapist idealizes me? » Dinah, posted by Daisym on August 2, 2008, at 17:22:31
Daisy, I've done it again. I have totally blocked out of consciousness any thoughts that have to do with his "glow". I could be a Freudian case study sometimes.
You're right. The timing couldn't have been worse. I've seen how he can go from despair to bliss. And with none of the reservations on that bliss that I would have considered prudent.
Under these circumstances, any unusually positive regard will be heavy with the implicit negative regard that could follow. Safety would lie in the middle.
Plus, I certainly wouldn't want to be included in any rosy glow he might be experiencing.
I think a lot of what I said was true too. But... Boy. I have serious issues with his glow.
> This reminds me of what we often tell our home visitors - be careful with compliments. Judging someone positively still shows that you can, and will, judge them.
That is so true. Acceptance is so much better than compliments.
Posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 18:07:39
In reply to Re: Is it possible that my therapist idealizes me? » Daisym, posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 17:47:42
I'm going to have to write that on sticky notes and put them everywhere.
Posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 18:32:55
In reply to Re: rofl. I'm back to timebomb issues too., posted by Nadezda on August 2, 2008, at 16:57:08
> Oh-- and by the way-- if some of your qualities mean something to him personally, as I have no doubt that they do-- that means he does have a certain value for them-- maybe not the universal value-- & maybe he's idealizing a bit-- I don't mean to press this on you; maybe he is quite off-- but is it so far-fetched to try them on for size, just provisionally-- or someday?
He has qualities that mean something to me. Because of that, I care about him far more than is logical or sensible based on our relationship. I know he's come to care about me and is fond of me. But it's always been based on logical and sensible things. Or as he always puts it, it's because of the time and hard work we've put in together. I know I provoke countertransference in him, but only of the bad sort. I know that as clients go, I'm important to him. But it would really upset me if I thought that I had qualities that meant something to him. I don't think that's true. Quite the opposite really. I generally think he likes me despite my personal qualities. That is the foundation of our relationship.
I think I'm going to stop thinking about it in those terms. I can't possibly have any personal qualities that mean anything to him as a person. It would be way too unsettling. It would mess up the whole therapist/client dynamic. I need him. He doesn't need me. A therapist can not need anything from a client except a check. They have to create that space that is needed for therapy.
I think I overthought the whole thing. I do that.
Posted by Nadezda on August 3, 2008, at 11:42:12
In reply to Re: rofl. I'm back to timebomb issues too. » Nadezda, posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 18:32:55
I think you're right, Dinah.
It definitely isn't good for you to have anything that feels like a violation of his neutrality. It's perfectly valid to need that space of safety-- and very important to have it, if it's what you need.
I suspect that whatever happened the other day was a loss of that neutrality, which he mostly is able to give you-- and which I suppose, for whatever reason, slipped away momentarily.
Perhaps that's what you need to address with him-- that it's very disturbing and threatening to you in those moments when that safety is compromised.
I'm sure the two of you can reestablish it again--- and I think it's admirable that you can sense, so quickly, when things are out of balance and put a red flag on that-- so it can be put right.
Obsessive feelings are very scary-- I'm sorry if I, in any way, contributed to that.
(((Dinah)))
Nadezda
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 13:54:55
In reply to Re: rofl. I'm back to timebomb issues too. » Dinah, posted by Nadezda on August 3, 2008, at 11:42:12
No, you in no way contributed.
I have too many issues in my life right now about responsibility. The biggest one being my mother. I think that's pushed me over the edge on my responsibility OCD.
I just scared myself with my own thoughts is all. Being around my therapist will reassure me that my thoughts went in totally incorrect directions. Thirteen years of relationship trumps one experience.
I do think I can talk to him in terms of neutrality, so thank you for that. It's not too scary a way to phrase it with him. He was definitely not neutral. I need him to be neutral.
If I were anyone else, I'd probably advise that it's best to talk about the scary thoughts with him. But it isn't the right time for that.
Thanks, Nadezda. You did nothing but help.
This is the end of the thread.
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